4 WAYS TO RECONNECT WITH YOUR SPIRITUALITY AFTER RELIGIOUS TRAUMA WITH CASEY BAIN, LPC | EP 23

[DAWN GABRIEL]
Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, host of Faith Fringes Podcast, recording live from Castle Rock Colorado, not only where I love to live, but I also work as the owner of a counseling center in the historic downtown. This podcast is a place to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. For those desiring deeper connection with God and engaging their spirituality in new ways, this will be a safe place to allow doubt, questions and curiosity, without judgment. We will be creating intentional space to listen in on other’s faith journeys, whether that is deconstruction or reconstruction, with the hope of traveling alongside you on your own spiritual path. If you’re interested in getting even more out of this podcast, grab my free email course Spiritual Reflections on my websitefaithfringes.com. Welcome to the podcast.

Hello. Welcome back to Faith Fringes. This is Dawn your host. Today’s episode, we are going to look at again, religious trauma. I got so much response from that, that I wanted to take another podcast episode to talk through it more and to maybe give practical ways of how we can kind of work through some religious trauma. And this is not saying we shouldn’t go to therapy. I’m saying for those of you who are ready to re-engage with your spirituality and re-engage with God, and you’re kind of looking for ways to do that today’s guest will talk about that. She also talks about if you’re not ready, that that’s okay. So we kind of look at a whole continuum of where you might be at in religious trauma, whether you’re identifying with a major event or just over time, realizing I’m uncomfortable with some things that happened in my spiritual journey when I went to church and I’m trying to deconstruct that.

So today I have Casey Bain with us. Casey is a Licensed Professional Counselor working out of Denver, Colorado. In her work with clients, she specializes in working with issues such as deconstruction, religious trauma, sexuality, and embodiment, and more. I am very excited to have you guys here, Casey today and just hear her heart about working with people who are working through religious trauma.
[DAWN]
Casey, welcome to the podcast.
[CASEY BAIN]
Hi, thank you.
[DAWN]
Yes, I’m glad you’re here. Why don’t you start by introducing yourself to my listeners and telling us who you are and kind of a little bit about you?
[CASEY]
Yes, absolutely. So I’m Casey, I’m a Licensed Professional Counselor and I have a private practice called Unraveling Free. With my practice, I specialize in things like church hurt, deconstruction, religious trauma, issues related to sexuality. So those are the main topics that most of my clients come in with.
[DAWN]
Wow. That sounds like a good fit for my listeners and my podcast because we try to create space here to just kind of wrestle through some of those issues. And I know sometimes it’s hard to talk about and a lot of people don’t know where to go. So I love that your courage and your vulnerability of coming on here today to talk about, yes, religious trauma and how do we heal from that? And you have some practical advice for us, but why don’t we start by having you share, like, what do you think religious trauma is and what have you seen in your practice around that?
[CASEY]
Yes, so I would say very simply religious trauma is any type of trauma that is connected to religion. So either trauma based on what you experienced in a religious space or from your parents, but it was based on religious teaching. So if you think about what trauma is, because I think there can be a lot of misunderstanding around that, thinking of trauma, not necessarily as what happened, but how your body responded. So when something happened that felt so overwhelming to where your body couldn’t make sense of it or process it, and it creates this stuckness or anxiety or confusion around whatever it was that happened. And there’s an impact of that.

We know we’re learning more and more, that trauma is held in our body. So when you think of religious trauma, a lot of times, I mean, yes, for some people it’s a one-time event. Maybe there was some sort of very obvious abuse from a clergy member or something very specific that happened. But a lot of times it’s more of a complex trauma that exists over a long period of time. So what I mean by complex trauma is that rather than it just being like one singular event, which would be more of a shock trauma, it’s more complex and that it’s a lot of little things that can add up over time. And that’s typically what I see with my clients. It’s that they were told something about themselves over and over again, or they lived in fear over this long period of time because of what they were taught. So these different experiences that can feel overwhelming and be stored in the body as traumatic.
[DAWN]
Wow. That’s a great definition, even just pulling out complex versus one moment of shock trauma. I love how you said that. Could you explain how the body holds it because I think I get what you mean, but I think a lot of people don’t understand that they, I don’t think they know where to put that? Can you explain that a little bit more? How does our body hold trauma? What would that look like?
[CASEY]
Yes. So I am not a science person and so getting really into the science of it, I think is amazing and there are a lot of people who do a really good job of that. So I will explain it in the most kind of simple, basic way that I can, but there is a lot of really great science and research for anyone who’s interested. So when you experience something that is overwhelming to your nervous system, your system kind of takes note of that, of like, hey, this thing that you experienced is not safe. And that is very protective and good in the sense that it helps us survive. So if you, I think the classic example of like, if you come across, if you hear rustling in the woods and then you see a bear or some sort of predatory animal, your body learns next time that you hear the footsteps or the sticks breaking to go into your body tightening up and feeling afraid and your heart starts to race.

So similarly, when we experience things throughout our lives that our body kind of takes note or registers as this wasn’t safe, this puts you in danger, then your body starts to tension around those things. It impacts your sense of safety, of anxiety. It can even shut you down. You kind of thinking of that as more of the freeze response or depression or just connection. So your body is really learning all of the time. So when we bring in the religious trauma aspect, if you were learning over and over again, don’t show this aspect of who you are, because you’re going to get this reaction, which feels unsafe because then you won’t belong. And if you’re kicked out, you won’t feel safe anymore.
[DAWN]
That’s huge. I want to come back to that when you’re done explaining.
[CASEY]
Yes, no, that’s really, I feel like the easiest way that I can maybe explain in this moment, at least, the way that our body is storing all of these things that happen.
[DAWN]
Yes. And like you said, it can show up in maybe depression or even simple, like you start sweating or your heart’s racing, or you feel dizzy maybe when you’re in church or when you are around people in that community that started that. And I’m thinking of myself, even. It wasn’t till I was in my thirties, late thirties and my husband and I were searching for new churches in the area that we just moved to and I had just gotten certified or just got trained in EMDR, which is a trauma; for those of you who don’t know, it’s a trauma therapy mode to treat trauma. And I started recognizing some panic, like feelings when I sat in church and I was like, what’s happening? These are PTSD symptoms, trauma symptoms. And that’s when I started acknowledging, I have to look at some of this. Why am I having, like, why am I sweating and my heart’s racing when I’m just sitting in church? Why do I feel like I have to run out of here? I didn’t even realize until I had training in it that that’s what had happened.
[CASEY]
Yes, it can be very confusing and overwhelming when you don’t understand what the heck is going on.
[DAWN]
Yes, because in my view, I had loved some of my church experience, not all of it, but I didn’t really acknowledge that until later in life. And I had some great experiences in church, but it was the not so great ones and the fear and internal shame that was going on that was coming out later. I don’t know if that’s, do you see that with clients? Do you have like specifics, you can tell us about like, how that plays out, where they don’t know it and then all of a sudden you’re like, “Wait, I can’t go back to church.”
[CASEY]
Oh yes, definitely. And I think that is one of the most frustrating for people who, if they do want to re-engage with spirituality or church, maybe after they’ve taken a break or they want to be able to continue going, but something has happened or all of a sudden their body just starts responding that way out of nowhere, that happens too. There’s all the different ways it can happen, but that can be really frustrating and even upsetting for someone who wants to continue being involved in church or spirituality in whatever form, but then their body is having these big reactions. So I think of it as kind of some of the things you mentioned, heart racing, sweating, feeling nauseous. I feel like that happens for a lot of people, feeling very irritated or angry, emotional reactions, like just crying out of nowhere, panic attacks, all different kinds of ways that our bodies respond to let us know something’s not okay.
[DAWN]
Yes. And since we’re talking, I mean, these are signs of anxiety and trauma and PTSD, but can we get more specific on what are you seeing specifically in churches? And maybe this is too big of a question, but what are you seeing as the reasons people are having these responses? What are some examples so my listeners can say, “Oh, that makes sense or I’ve experienced that too.” What are some examples of how people get to this point?
[CASEY]
Yes, you’re right. It is a big question. I feel like for a lot of my clients and I would say for me as well, the way that some of this started showing up was going through some sort of process of deconstruction. So recognizing, okay, there’s some things in the church that I maybe don’t agree with beliefs that I subscribed to that I now no longer feel like are true or recognizing oh actually, how the church has treated women or how the church has treated the LGBTQ community. I’m suddenly realizing I’m really not okay with that. So there’s usually some sort of shift or recognizing that something’s not okay and then starting to get in touch with those parts of yourself. So what I mean by that is, as you, so I’ll give a couple of examples from my own life.

And I feel like they are very prevalent examples with clients. So for me, I was involved in church growing up and loved it, loved my faith community, loved being connected to spirituality. And there were a couple of aspects. So one being female and the churches that I was in growing up were not accepting of women being in leadership or having certain roles, or even being seen as like equal in the workforce in certain ways of certain jobs, certain roles are for women. And I really, there were aspects of that that frustrated me, but I sort of just accepted it. And I remember even wishing when I was a teenager that I could be a guy so that I could, if I wanted to be a pastor, I could but I never felt unsafe in church. I never felt uncomfortable. It just felt like this is just the way it is.

And then over time, as I began my process of deconstruction, of really connecting to myself as a female and feeling empowered in that and feeling like there should be a quality and and I shouldn’t be treated differently and all of these different things, recognizing the history and the patriarchy and just all of it that then when I would step into a church, that part of me that I now is connected to suddenly felt not safe anymore. It was like this reminder in my body of like, you’re not fully welcome here. You have to shut down this part of yourself if you still want to belong. And I think for a lot of people going through some form of deconstruction, they feel similar. Your doubt is not welcome here. Your new beliefs are not welcome here. You can’t actually show where you’re at or who you really are because you will not be accepted or you will be looked down on. So either get back in line or just hide it. And that creates this tension and discomfort and knowledge, even within our bodies, that you are not safe to be who you really are here.
[DAWN]
Wow. Even as you were saying that, I was just feeling it when you said you don’t belong here, hide who you are or change it. It was just a heaviness that settled on me. So I’m sorry that, that was your experience. And I think you’re right. It does happen after we start questioning, “Hey, I’m not sure I agree with everything that I’m being taught. What where do I go with that? What do I do that?” Would you say Casey, that you were able to find a church community that allowed those doubts or allowed you to come as you are? Or was it more no, I haven’t found that yet.
[CASEY]
No, I haven’t found that yet. And I definitely know it’s out there. I’m open to it. I’m married. So my husband has his own process of hurt and religious trauma that he’s also processing. And as people know who go through, either this process together, or one person in the couple is going through it, it’s always that back and forth too, of where are we each at? Is this something we want to re-engage in? And so for us, I think we’re open to it. We’re open to the idea of finding a church where we both feel safe and that we feel like is very accepting and holds the same values that are important to us. And I feel like it’s been very important in our healing process to really take the pressure off. I think a lot — [crosstalk].

I think a lot of people feel a lot of pressure of, I need to get back into this. I need to, whether that is because it’s what you’ve always known, or it feels uncomfortable to be in that in between or it feels like, oh my gosh, if I’m not in church, what will my family say? You know, for whatever reason, or you just want to be reconnected. There’s so many valid reasons, but allowing ourselves the freedom to let it take time, to take the pressure off, to know that even if we never get there, that’s okay too.
[DAWN]
Yes. And I think that’s so important. Like I’ve said it before in my podcast, I don’t think church is the goal. I think for me, and my hope is that connecting with God is the goal or like your own relationship and it doesn’t have to be in a church. Or I love authentic community and it doesn’t have to look like people in the same church. It can be authentic community with people who do accept you for who you are and who do let you show all of you. And I think that’s just so important to give ourselves the freedom if we haven’t figured it out with the church. Like you can still find authentic community and spiritual, authentic community elsewhere and go after it, because to me it’s so vital in my life that I have a few people in my life that I can talk about spirituality. I can talk about God and I can be my true self where there’s no judgment. And I think it’s so powerful to have that. So, yes. I love how you explain that, to take the pressure off.
[CASEY]
Absolutely. Yes, and I think even in that process, because I have some clients who are done. They have experienced hurt trauma, whatever it is and either because of that, or just because of changes of beliefs, they really do not have any interest in being connected to spirituality, connected to God or religion in any way. And that’s okay. I want to absolutely be with them where they’re at and not and I’m totally fine with that, uncomfortable with that. For those who do want that to still be a part of their life, I love what you’re saying of there might be spaces that never feel safe for you, but that doesn’t mean that spirituality or connection to God or to the divine in whatever way is not still available. And that is what is so beautiful and finding what feels good and okay and your body like noticing, Ooh, I feel relaxed. I feel at peace when I am in nature or when I play music or whatever it is that helps you connect to God, to spirituality in a way that can, that can feel right.
[DAWN]
Yes. I think I you’re talking my language, Casey, especially when you said nature. I feel like there’s so many times if I feel disconnected from just life or especially from God, I have to go on a hike. I have to get away in nature because I know that’s going to connect me quicker than anything else. So I feel like when, I feel like this leads right into what we were talking about before we started recording is if someone does want to re-engage, you kind of mentioned, I’d like you to kind of go more into that, like noticing your body. Can you give us maybe a few tips on what would help someone be able to re-engage with their spirituality in God, whether that’s a church or not? What are you had some really practical tips you were going to share?
[CASEY]
Yes, absolutely. So first of all, even this idea of connecting to your body can be really hard for people. And if you’re listening and you don’t know where to start, that’s okay. You’re not alone in that. I think being able to just sit with a different, whatever feeling it is and just notice how it feels in your body, what happens in your body when you think about church? What happens in your body when you think about your best friend? Like start trying out what it feels like to notice what relaxation feels like, what anger feels like, what fear feels like, getting to know yourself in that way. There is a huge focus in our culture on knowing yourself in a very intellectual and cognitive way and making decisions in a very logical cognitive way without taking into account the wisdom, the intuition of our bodies.

So I think for a lot of people, when they’re making a decision of how to engage with spirituality, how to engage with God, they still want it to be very cognitive of, oh, this is what I’m supposed to do. This is what I should be able to do. And then there is this frustration when that doesn’t work right, when there’s this resistance inside of yourself, or it feels really crappy and like what’s wrong with me. So allowing it to be a very connected, compassionate process where there’s a lot of curiosity can make it so much just, I mean, even those words that feels so much better than trying to just push through and this is what I should be able to do. So coming at it from that kind compassionate place, I think is really important. And then doing a little bit of that exploring.

So maybe, for myself, I use myself as an example that the idea of kind of stepping into a church space where I know that maybe they wouldn’t allow women or LGBTQ in membership or in leadership, membership for LGBTQ leadership for either I can feel a tightening in my body. I can feel a sense of wanting to escape. But for me, when I think about sitting and being present with God, with this sense of the divine, I really like the word, the divine, it feels safer to me now, when I think about that, I feel relaxed and I feel almost this sense of pull into it, of like wanting to enter that space, wanting to feel that and experience that. So that lets me know that, ooh, my body feels good there and feel safe there and that’s a really good access point. And maybe at some point I can get to that place to feeling safer in a church building, but right now I can start here. So that was a really long answer for even just a first step of getting in touch with your body and kind of seeing where you can start. So I will pause. I know there’s like a lot more.
[DAWN]
Well, I actually feel like there were a few steps within that, like getting in touch with your body was one and you were saying, try to do it on things that aren’t really charged yet. Like do with your best friend or how do you feel about your favorite drink or something, even to do it with things that are simple and then try to see how you feel and just know it’s more just noticing, no judgment. And just noticing what’s in your body, how your body responds and let it be okay, don’t judge it good or bad. I’m adding that. But that’s what I took from that, from what you said, and then I feel like you had another one in there, no shooting. Like watch the shoulds and the shoulds and the should nots and just kind of notice that. I feel like that’s another step in there within that of, like you even said it, like, when you were saying, I should do this, I shouldn’t do that and then you switched and said connected, compassionate, and curious. My own body like started breathing softer and slower.
[CASEY]
Yes. And I will say, thinking about listening to your body, that in and of itself can feel so scary if you’ve grown up in church and have been told your whole life don’t trust your body. Your body is sinful. Don’t trust your emotions. They’re not trustworthy. So I do want to acknowledge that, that this can feel like, wait, can I really trust my intuition and my body? And what I would say to that, first of all, I think that that is so sad that that pressure and like the taking away of the body’s wisdom has happened within a lot of church settings and I think it’s really sad that the focus is so much just on cognitive belief. But beyond that, I would say that what your body is saying doesn’t mean that it’s absolutely true. It’s just a message, same with your emotions. When you something, it doesn’t mean that that thing is true, but it’s important. So with the church thing, for example, if I think about going into even a church that I would agree with, but if I think about going into that church and all of a sudden, I feel that tightening and I feel the fear that doesn’t mean that church is bad necessarily. It just means that my body is letting me know that there’s something there for me.
[DAWN]
That’s huge. It’s a great signal. And I love that you drew out that distinction, even though we’ve been taught, don’t trust your body, it’s bad. But pulling that out into a deeper message of take notice of what your body’s saying, your body in and of itself is not bad. It’s take notice of what it’s saying. What are the signals telling you? And that doesn’t mean it’s a hundred percent true because we all have false beliefs running around in our head. I love that you pulled that out and made the distinction.
[CASEY]
Yes. It’s always important. I think that’s where people get stuck as the ignoring, pushing away. It’s like, no, your body deserves a voice and to be listened to. And let’s be curious about what it’s saying, what it’s afraid of, what it needs to feel safe in that kind of relationship with your body.
[DAWN]
So let’s say we’re about to walk into a spiritual community or a church, and we notice that tightening. What’s one thing we could do. I know you and I had talked earlier, what are some things we can do if we want to push through and keep working towards that?
[CASEY]
Yes. So first I would just want to reiterate that if that is going to have a really intense reaction, your body is telling you, you are not ready for this to listen to that and to feel okay about not doing it. So if you do feel like though, okay, I’m just going to push my body a little bit and I’m going to enter this space, I know that it is safe and it will be okay even if my body is feeling some fear. So noticing it, acknowledging it. So I like the idea of having this internal dialogue with your body. So letting yourself know, okay, I feel that you’re afraid. I feel that you’re unsure about this. I hear you. I’m here with you. It sounds a little weird talking to your body. I’m here with you. And if it gets too overwhelming, maybe have that kind of escape plan.

We can leave, but I want you to trust me that we’re going to be okay. And kind of moving towards, bringing in some calm, some comfort, almost like a scared child. You know, I’m here with you. You won’t be alone. We’ll leave if it gets too bad and then using some skills, if you have some of helping bring some calm to your body. So that might be really slow, deep breaths. It might be, if you’re with someone you trust, holding their hands, just getting that squeeze of knowing you’re not alone. Those things that can help bring that sense of calm and comfort to you.
[DAWN]
I love that. I think so many times we, like you said, we go, so in our heads and we’re not allowing ourselves to feel the experience. And even though you said, it sounds weird, like we’re talking to a small child, but we kind of need, we do need that because what’s the opposite is going on in our heads and we’re just not saying it out loud, because before we’re saying those kinds of things to ourselves, we’re seeing some pretty terrifying things. Like you’re not safe. You’re not going to be okay. Something’s wrong with you? You’re evil where even you’re going to hell. So there’s like, that stuff is not true, so you need to offset that with some kinder words and yes, I think it’s great for offsetting the anxiety.
[CASEY]
Yes. And it’s so, even the language as I was going through that example, how kind and compassionate is, you’re right. That’s the total opposite of how we tend to talk to ourselves of like, you’re fun, pull it together, get over it. You know, just usually we can be so harsh.
[DAWN]
Yes. I’m strong. I don’t have to give into this, push through, suck it up.
[CASEY]
Yes, and there can be that gentle, challenging of yourself while still being kind. And I think people feel like, oh, if I’m nice to myself, then I’ll just never do anything and I’ll just never push myself. And no, you can still do really hard things while being kind to yourself.
[DAWN]
Yes. And even saying that, like, I can do really hard things right now. I can do this. So it’s different than suck it up. Get in there, don’t show that you’re afraid. That sounds very different than I can do hard things. This is hard, but I know I can push through this and I have my partner next to me, you know, like listing good things. So it’s a very different mindset. And something you said also reminded me Casey, of like I grew up in the church. Even getting my counseling degree was like 15, 20 years ago. There wasn’t a lot of body awareness and counseling those days. And I feel like now it very much is about body awareness. So I have found that I’ve gotten more into spiritual direction type of spirituality and how I’ve connected with God and that definitely engages the five senses way more than I’m used to. And that’s how I connect more, through body awareness and more imagery and guided visualization. Like for me, I’ve been experiencing more of that as spirituality and faith. And I feel like it’s so much more powerful, my connection to God through the senses.
[CASEY]
Yes. Wow. That’s really beautiful. I can see that. And even if you look at where Christianity is at in the United States right now, it does make me wonder if we had been less focused, if the church of Christianity had been less focused on right beliefs. And I’m almost putting that in quotes here of like, what are the “right beliefs”? You know, it’s very cognitive. You’re in or you’re out, you know this black and white thinking and all about can you agree to these eight tenants of faith? You know, it’s just very kind of logical, feels very masculine to me rather than kind of dropping down into yes, the five senses into experiencing God in your body, experiencing God in nature and through imagery and experiencing the divine and what feels to me like these more feminine ways, but maybe felt too soft and too gray for the start of a strong arm, Christianity if we have the true, I don’t know this is all conjecture. But there’s something to that that just feels really good to me thinking of it being more connected to the senses.
[DAWN]
Yes. The way you described it, I haven’t thought of it that way, but that makes sense. Like, I could see how you could see the more masculine versus a more feminine side. And I feel like God has both, like He created us to have both sides and to just kind of dive into that. But even this, my spiritual director who I meet with, she is more of an Ignation spiritual director and that comes from St. Ignatius who is like one of the first forefathers to lead into the more experiential spirituality. And that’s just, yes, more of my language. And I agree like having, I do think it’s hard having the, you agree to these 10 tenets of faith versus why don’t we look at the greatest commandment, love God and love others. Like, let’s break that down because that seems more hard, but simple. Let’s just focus on that. What does loving look like? Wow. Well Casey, thank you so much for giving us your time and your thoughts and anything else you can think of as we’re closing on? If you could say one thing to someone who is looking to kind of reconnect with God, but has some religious trauma or they maybe are just now acknowledging it, what is one thing you would say to them today?
[CASEY]
That your pain is valid. Your experience is valid. There are a lot of really hurtful, harmful teachings, ways of living out religion that people have had to experience and have experienced. And you’re so not alone. It can feel like a lot, but there are a lot of great resources out there. There’s therapy out there and there’s freedom on the other side. It is possible to move through that and it can be scary not knowing where you’re going to land, but wherever it is, it can be very freeing, very beautiful process to go through.
[DAWN]
Wow. Thank you. Those are beautiful words. If someone wants to get ahold of you, Casey, do you want to shout out your website or how do they reach you? Especially if they’re in Colorado, Casey’s from Colorado, like me, how can they get ahold of you?
[CASEY]
Yes. So my website is unravelingfree.com. Nice and simple. And I’m also on Instagram at Unraveling Free. I do primarily see clients online for therapy and coaching, so I can see clients throughout the US. So regardless of where you live, I can see you. I do see clients in person in Denver, a couple of days a week as well. So that is how people can contact me.
[DAWN]
Great. I love that. Thank you so much.
[CASEY]
You’re welcome.
[DAWN]
Bye Casey.

Thank you for listening today at Faith Fringes Podcast. If you want to explore more of your own faith journey, I offer my free eight-week email course called Spiritual Reflections, where you take a deeper dive into your own story included as a journaling workbook that has guided exercises. So if you want to explore more of what you were brought up to believe, or even look at where you may have been disillusioned or hurt, but yet still deep down you desire to authentically connect with God, then this course is for you. Just go to faithfringes.com to sign up.

Also, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email and tell me what’s on your mind. You can reach me at dawn@faithfringes.com.

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