[DAWN GABRIEL]
Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, host of Faith Fringes Podcast, recording live from Castle Rock Colorado, not only where I love to live, but I also work as the owner of a counseling center in the historic downtown. This podcast is a place to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. For those desiring deeper connection with God and engaging their spirituality in new ways, this will be a safe place to allow doubt, questions and curiosity, without judgment. We will be creating intentional space to listen in on other’s faith journeys, whether that is deconstruction or reconstruction, with the hope of traveling alongside you on your own spiritual path. If you’re interested in getting even more out of this podcast, grab my free email course Spiritual Reflections on my websitefaithfringes.com. Welcome to the podcast.
[DAWN]
Welcome back to Faith Fringes. Today we are going to be hearing part two of the beginner’s Guide to the Enneagram with James P. Owens. You probably heard the first part where we dove into the overview of the Enneagram and also we talked about types one and two. Well, today we’re going to hear about types three through nine and if you are like me, I always love personality tests, but the Enneagram is different than a test. I feel like this is more of a journey and more of, it took me like a year and a half to kind of figure out what my type was because it’s a really thought provoking journey. And the reason for that is it dives into more of your shadow side or the darker part of yourself, as well as the best version of yourself. And it really took some wrestling to figure that out.

I have really enjoyed the Enneagram and I know a lot of my friends and my clients and my peers have also really enjoyed it as it’s really helped, like tremendous growth personally and spiritually to kind of look at the Enneagram. So I hope you’re really enjoying hearing about it. And maybe you’ll be able to discover your type as you listen in to James and I talk about the different types today. Feel free to reach out and share any comments or questions you have. You can get ahold of James Owens. He actually has an Instagram page on Working the Enneagram and he has a lot info there. You can also ask me at dawn@faithfringes.com. I’d love to hear from you. Thanks again and listen in, as we talk about more things about the Enneagram. Thanks so much for listening.
[JAMES OWEN]
Yes. So I think that’s a really good point about type twos. I’m from the south and so many women here in the south, especially in kind of the conservative Christian circles are raised to have these type two characteristics, whether that ends up being their dominant personality type or not. Lots of folks feel like they have to fit themselves in certain boxes. No, I think it can be hard for male twos as well because so many folks see those characteristics as being “feminine” even though they certainly don’t have to be. Now, the next type is type three. And you mentioned a second ago that you’re a type three, you’re dominant and type three. So I definitely want to hear what your experience has been like here as we talk about that, because type three is called the achiever or the performer, kind of a success oriented type, someone who wants to succeed and be effective and be the best.

And this, similar to type twos type, threes are coming from a place of wanting to be loved as well. Types two, three, and four are called the heart or feelings triad. And so they’re all kind of living out of a place of emotion. Even though type threes often do their best to ignore their emotions they are coming from this place of wanting to be loved, wanting to be loved for being valuable, for being the best for being the winner. And so the fear that type threes have is to be unloved because you’re a loser or worse or something like that. On the positive side, threes are self-confident, optimistic types. They can be extremely effective in all kinds of different situations, definitely, their element in work usually. They’re leaders, charming, charismatic, can kind of win over others over to their side. On the shadow side, threes struggle with decease, over-exaggerating achievements maybe, or kind of building up a self-image that may not be a totally accurate reflection of who they are. So many teachers associate animal symbols with each type and I think some of those —
[DAWN]
Oh I know that.
[JAMES]
Yes, yes. And some of those are more helpful than others, but the type one for type three is chameleon. And I think that’s actually pretty, pretty good because chameleons change color based on their background and type threes become whatever they need to be in order to succeed. They kind of adapt really well to these, to wherever situations they’re in and become whatever they have to be in order to be success, in order to meet the definition, whatever their definition happens to be of success.
[DAWN]
I do not know that. Yes, well how does that differ from a nine, because I know the nine’s a little bit more adapting as well?
[JAMES]
Yes. Nines tend to adapt. They tend to adapt to the wants and needs of other people a little more. They tend to kind of go along with the flow, kind of go with whatever the group wants, whereas the three will become whatever they need to be, to be the star of the group, to be the successful one.
[DAWN]
Okay. That makes more sense, yes. Well the funny thing is James is when I was trying to figure out what I was. So I moved a lot growing up. I went to three high schools. I just moved a lot a ton and so that makes a lot of sense why it took me a while to figure out it was a three because I was adapting so much and doing whatever I needed. I’m the first born of five kids and I was always in a leadership position. Like I went to college on a leadership scholarship. So I didn’t even realize I was a three until my best friend, we were actually traveling in a different country and we were like, “We’re going to study the Enneagram while we’re on this trip.” Like we were in Malaysia. So it was like a 17-hour flight and so I was reading up on it and I was like, “I think I’m a two, I think like a one sometimes.” And she’s like, “I think you’re a three.” I was like, “What? I’m not three.” And in my head deep down, I was like, “I’m not good enough to be a three.” And that’s what actually clued me in is when I looked at the fear and the shadow side, because I was like, I don’t, all the examples they gave, it seemed like everybody was so successful.

I’m like, “I don’t feel that successful.” And she’s like, “Dawn let’s look at your life.” So as we were looking, she’s like, I looked and I’m like, my mom died six years ago and then within a year I started a group practice. I also came home and ran a half marathon right after her funeral. Like I do like these big things, even in grieve or I had like a personal tragedy in my life and then I went and got a master’s degree in counseling. Like you know what I mean? It’s not like I went to, I mean, I did go to counseling, but I went and got a master’s in counseling to deal with like some issues or like I need to get in shape. Okay, I’ll sign up for a marathon and that’s how I get in shape. So that’s when I realized, “Oh yes, I might be a three.”
[JAMES]
Yes. You know, it’s interesting. One of the things you’ll hear about threes is even threes are in the heart or feelings. Oh yes. So one of the things we hear about threes is even the threes are in the heart or feelings triad. Threes tend to have less access to their feelings than a lot of other types. And one of the things you’ll hear is that threes don’t so much feel their feelings as they do their feelings. So when you were talking about running a marathon while grieving your mother, that just seems acting out those feelings rather than stopping to feel them.
[DAWN]
It’s so true. And even being a therapist, I’m more comfortable sitting with other people’s feelings then dealing with my own. So that took some hard work to realize. And even my husband and I have talked about that. He, like your marriage, usually there are the people who see the best and the worst and so dealing with some of our conflict of like me not accessing my feelings or getting super independent on him and him being like, “You are a therapist. How are you not dealing with your own feelings?” So it’s been super self-revealing as you’ve mentioned before, the Enneagram has been super helpful in like deep work for me.
[JAMES]
Yes, absolutely. That’s awesome that you’re, I think you have a lot of insight already into your type and how you can grow with it. So that’s really cool.
[DAWN]
Yes. Thanks. So let’s go on to four.
[JAMES]
Yes. Yes, continuing around that circle so if, you know, if type twos kind of turn their feelings out to other people and they feel the feelings of others and they meet those needs and like I said, three’s kind of ignore their feelings and do them instead. Fours feel their feelings very deeply. A type four is sometimes called the romantic or the individualist. Someone who is typically highly sensitive and emotional. They’re not all fours come across that way Initially. They do feel their feelings very deeply on the inside, whether they let you know about that or not. Fours also want to be loved And somewhere along the way in childhood type four has got this message that the way to try to be loved is to be unique, to be different, to be a totally unlike anyone else.

“That’s how I’m going to be significant. That’s how I’m going to be loved. That’s how I’m going to have the kind of life I want to have.” The basic fear for fours is to have no identity or no significance, to get lost and just kind of be like everybody else. It’s kind of a stereotype, but upon hearing about the Enneagram, sometimes fours will say, “Well, no one else is like me. I couldn’t be any of those types. No one else is like me.” So that idea of I’m going to be loved by being unique often does backfire for type fours because sometimes they become so unique that they distance themselves from other people and they end up sort of being alone, which is not what they want.

But type fours also bring a lot of really awesome gifts to the table. Certainly many type fours are very artistic, have a great eye for beauty. Anything aesthetic, fours are often really great with. Also fours because they feel their emotions and are so comfortable feeling their own emotions, they can understand the emotions of others. If they turn their attention towards something like counseling or sitting with other people in grief, type fours can be really effective in that because they’re a little more comfortable with the emotions that the rest of us think are a little too negative or places we don’t want to go to and sadness or melancholy or whatever. Fours are okay with that. It’s not a problem for them. They kind of live in that place. I think in kind of a spiritual sense, too, type fours reject this division between the holy and the ordinary or the sacred in their profane. And so fours help us to see the spiritual side of everything, the beauty and godliness in ordinary things.
[DAWN]
I haven’t heard that before about fours. I like that piece.
[JAMES]
Yes, I think in religious settings, fours are often attracted to traditions that have a strong aesthetic component, whether it’s Rick Orthodoxy with the icons or Catholicism with the smells and bells, attracted to beauty in that way. You know what I mean? On the flip side though, on the shadow side, the deadly sin of fours tend to think that everyone else has it better than them. They think something is missing from their own life and everyone else just has something they don’t. So a lot of their issues can kind of result from that, feeling different than others, feeling left out. And that sort of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, unfortunately, in many cases.
[DAWN]
Yes, the thing that’s striking me as we talk about fours, but it’s true for all the numbers, I just love how it’s so deep about like your giftings, like each number brings a gift. But yet you’re also looking at the shadow side and you have to just be really honest with yourself when you’re looking at these, but isn’t that, I think that’s so true about life, just looking at both holding space for both the dark and the light, because that is true of all of us. And I just love how the Enneagram is so specific and dives into both sides of those.
[JAMES]
Yes, absolutely. That’s really insightful. It shows us that the two are related, that our best qualities and our worst qualities are really inseparable from each other. And there’s so much related to each other that all the wonderful and great things about us wouldn’t exist without the less wonderful, engraved things about us. And so even as we try to grow beyond some of our weaknesses, we still accept ourselves as we are, because we know that yes, we all have this within us.
[DAWN]
Yes. The goal is not perfection. And actually now that we’re almost at number five, it’s bringing up your first story where it sounds like when the people were saying you shouldn’t be going into ministry, they were just looking at maybe some shadow sides or even misinterpreting your personality and yes they weren’t holding space for the giftings of the five. So yes. Tell us more about five
[JAMES]
That’s right. And I’ll say one thing real quick about that story too, is that one of the cool things about the Enneagram is well, I think it’s very useful in work settings and it can help people work together in great ways. One of the great things about it is there’s nothing in Enneagram teaching that says, “Oh, this type has to do this kind of job.” All the types can do any kind of job and be better at it and bring something to the table. So yes, for me as a pastor, like I bring certain strengths as a five, but I work on a church staff with other pastors who are different types and they bring really great strengths as well. And so, yes, there’s no like, this is not something that’s trying to like force you into a certain kind of job or career or whatever.

It’s going to make you better if you get into the Enneagram and study your type and use it to help you grip and make you better at whatever it is you feel like you’re supposed to be doing. So that’s just kind of something to throw out there. But yes type five —
[DAWN]
I love that.
[JAMES]
Yes. Thank you. Type five is of course, as I said, my type and it’s called the investigator or the observer. Fives tend to kind of take a step back from the world and view things at a distance. We like to collect knowledge and think before we act. Fives tend to view the world, and I certainly relate to this a lot, I tend to view the world as somewhat intrusive. Most fives are introverts and so we feel like the world is coming to take our energy away from us and we’ve got to conserve it and hold onto it a little bit. The basic desire for fives though, is to be capable and competent. And one of the ways that we pursue this desire for very, very many fives is by acquiring knowledge, getting information. I relate to this, certainly .I love to learn. I love to look things up, you know, the invention of Wikipedia is like the best and worst thing to ever happen to me because I just I want to know all the things, I want to have all the information. And it’s very hard for me to understand why people wouldn’t want to have all the information.

The basic fear for fives is to be helpless. And so we think, “Well, if I’ve mastered it, if I’ve got all the facts, if I know everything, I just know that I won’t be helpless. I won’t be incompetent.” So obviously this results in a lot of strengths, you know, fives can acquire a lot of knowledge and become experts on things. We are attracted to bodies of learning or knowledge such as the Enneagram or theology or engineering or philosophy or whatever. Fives tend to be open to new ideas. After all, if you love learning like I do, and I think most fives do, then you have to always admit that you don’t know everything and there would be nothing left to learn and life would just be terribly boring if that were the case. Fives tend to be good at listening, paying careful attention. Fives tend to think before speaking, and fives are also generally not seen as being very emotional types.

Though, we do feel things very deeply. We’re not very emotionally demonstrative. So fives can often remove themselves from emotion and kind of look at things more rationally and objectively than other types may. The deadly sin of fives is interesting. I talked earlier about how you have to kind of turn all of these on their head, all these deadly sins and passions to really understand how they work for each type. And so the deadly sin for fives is avarice and that’s kind of a traditional sounding word, which means greed. Now, this is interesting. So when I first read about this, that oh the deadly sin of fives is greed or avarice, I was like, “That’s not right.”
[DAWN]
That’s not me.
[JAMES]
Yes, “That’s not me. I’m not greedy at all. That’s not me.” Because like most fives, I mean, I don’t need a lot of material things. I think that if I didn’t have a wife and kids, I would probably own like 10 possessions that I could carry around in a plastic tub. You know what I mean? Other than books, I guess. But what it is the way that avarice comes out for fives is that we do tend to hoard time. We tend to hoard our energy, even our affection sometimes, and this can be very, very negative for fives that we may not hoard material possessions or money, but we do withhold ourselves from the world. We don’t engage with the world as much as we should, whether that’s giving our time or energy or our affection to others. And so for fives like me to grow, we kind of have to get in there and engage with the world and mix it up
[DAWN]
Almost like a scarcity. Like, “They’re going to take this from me. I have to protect it.”
[JAMES]
Oh, that’s right. Yes, definitely a scarcity mentality. And so I have to remind myself like, it’s renewable, like this is renewable energy. I can get this back. Yes, absolutely.
[DAWN]
I love hearing more about fives. One of my best friends said, “I think I’m a five.” And so I’ve been contemplating it. So this has been helpful listening to that.
[JAMES]
Oh yes. That’s great. Hey, if you have a five that’s one of your best friends then you should feel very fortunate because fives aren’t good at keeping up a lot of relationships. If they’ve chosen you as one of the special people that they stay in touch with then that’s really awesome.
[DAWN]
And it’s true. It’s funny because like we both had babies around the same time and I was like, “Oh, I know she’s a researcher.” And this was before we even knew about the Enneagram. I was like, I’m just going to ask her, whenever I have anything to research I’m like, “What have you learned about this?” And then I’ll just, because I trust her so much I just do whatever she tells me as far as like, when we were having babies, I’m like, “Okay, she’s researched this enough. I’ll buy this product or this thing.”
[JAMES]
Oh, nice. That’s awesome. Yes. If there’s one thing five’s are good at, it’s definitely research. And you can always get a five to talk if you want to talk to them about something they’re interested in. You know, the latest topic that a five has decided that they want research is going to be the kind of thing they want to talk about. And fives are interested in all kinds of different things. It could mean fives that are into literature and philosophy or math and science and engineering. You’ll meet fives that are interested in collecting whatever, all kinds of different things. So that’s really cool. Good deal. So type six, right?
[DAWN]
Yes, type six. Yep.
[JAMES]
Yes. So type six is sometimes called the loyalist or the skeptic or the loyal skeptic sometimes. This is the type that says, “I am faithful.” You know, I talked about all these nine qualities, “I am faithful.” Type sixes are loyal, reliable, self-sacrificing. Their basic desires to have some kind of support or guidance. And so type sixes are often attracted to the institutions of society, things that sort of are like the glue that holds our society together. So you’ll see a lot of type sixes working in hospitals or the fire department or the police department or the school system. You’ll see a lot of sixes attracted to systems of thinking that require sort of a respect for authority whether that’s a theological system or something else. The sixes tend to do great in academia because you have to follow the authority of your advisor, you know what I mean?

So sixes seek out that authority, but there’s a contradiction there because sixes, can also be very skeptical of authority at the same time. They say it sort of have this contradiction of, well, I want the security that comes from following an authority, but I’m also very selective about the authorities that I’ll follow. So there’s this kind of push and pull of well I want to follow the authority, but at the same time, if I don’t think they’re good. I’m going to go my own way and rebel. And so one of the things that this, the desire to seek out support and the basic fear on the flip side for sixes is to be insecure. One of the things that that results in is a keen awareness of all the things that can go wrong, all of the things that can happen, all the negative things, all the potential dangers, all the risks that could happen in anything.

So sixes are great at foreseeing the potential problems. If you as a three are coming in with a really great plan and you’re really jazzed about it, and you sit down with some of your coworkers or friends, you say, “This is my awesome new plan. Here’s how we’re going to do it all.” And you’ve got one person who says, “Yes, but you really need to think about X, Y, and Z, or you know that A, B and C can really go wrong,” that may be a six. And this can be a real gift too, just that ability to troubleshoot.
[DAWN]
It’s true. My admin assistant is a six and I have valued her so much because of this. Yes.
[JAMES]
Absolutely. Yes. So sixes are great folks to have on your team, good team players, faithful in all kinds of relationships, and they really go all in. If they decide you’re one of their people sixes tend to be all in for you. So some of the struggles, some of the downsides, because sixes expect the worst is sometimes turn on themselves and they can have self-doubt, even be self-sabotaging at times. Sixes tend to forget their successes and only remember their failures. So a good way to help our six friends is to remind them of all the great things they’ve done, all the great successes that they’ve had. The deadly sin for six is fear, and it does manifest itself in anxiety. Six is, do tend to struggle with worry and tend to worry.
[DAWN]
Yes, I think it’s so helpful to hear this. I keep thinking of how much that has helped me in working with people on my team. And yes, as you’re saying, I’m picturing someone who I know as each number.
[JAMES]
Oh right. Of course. Absolutely. And if you work together on a stuff, and that’s one of the things I really think is cool and doing this, working in the Enneagram stuff to really do and work with is to help people who work together to maximize those working relationships. I think knowing our Enneagram types, if we work together on a team is so helpful. It’s like taking a team that maybe just got together, has only been together for a few months or a year and fast-forwarding it so that it’s like you’ve been working together for 10 years.
[DAWN]
Yes. I totally agree and love that. I highly recommend it. And I think you’re doing some, you do trainings for work staff, don’t you for teams?
[JAMES]
Yes. That’s what I’m starting to get into now, is to be able to sort of go to a staff or a team and say, “Okay, let’s let’s help you all figure out your Enneagram types and then talk about how we can best work together as a team and how the types that are represented here can work together in ways that are more effective.”
[DAWN]
Yes. It’s been super helpful on my team. I have a team of 11 and it’s been helpful for us to communicate better and explain motivations. Yes, we just love it.
[JAMES]
There’s so many, I mean, more than I can say right now, but that communication style piece really goes into it as well because each Enneagram type has their own style of communication. And so as we try to work together, knowing how our teammates are, or our coworkers are inclined to communicate and be really good as well. But I know we’re, I know we’re moving through each type here, so want to go to type seven?
[DAWN]
Number seven. This is a fun one.
[JAMES]
Yes, and type sevens are fun. seven is called the enthusiast or the Epicure sometimes. Sevens are a fun, adventurous, pleasure seeking type. I know a guy here in town here in Savannah, who’s a seven and we went out to a venue, outdoor venue there at night to see his band play and he like played some of his songs, dressed in a kilt and was just really goofy and fun and it was awesome. We love sevens. Sevens are great. The basic desire for type seven is to be satisfied, to kind of, to have what they want. And so their basic here on the flip side of that is to be trapped or stuck in pain. Sevens will do a lot to avoid pain or to avoid negative situations. They tend to want to look on the bright side and will only consider the positives. So this can be a gift. Sevens can help us to reframe negative situations into positives. They tend to radiate joy and optimism, just be fun people to be around. Sevens are also quick thinkers. We’ve moved out of the heart triad now into head triad with five, six and seven, and sevens tend to be quick thinkers, think well on their feet.

They are also great storytellers and as leaders can be great at casting a vision and getting other people to like rally around them. On the flip side of that, the deadly sin of sevens is gluttony. Type sevens most want to be satisfied, they most want to seek out pleasure that can unfortunately sometimes get into this pattern of just seeking one positive experience after another, just trying to devour one pleasurable experience after another, whether that’s food or alcohol or something else. And so deadly sin is gluttony there. Sevens do tend to be one of the types that is more prone to addiction than some of the others, because there’s just this craving for stimulation, this desire to suppress negative feelings. Seven struggle to be able to process a negative feelings in any way.
[DAWN]
Yes. I think though it’s always important. I always tend to look for a seven type in my life without realizing it, like I’m drawn to, “This is my hype girl. I need to have fun with.” Like, I always am drawn to that for like fun getaway.
[JAMES]
Absolutely. Yes. We, I think especially for types like maybe type ones or type threes that can tend to get focused on work, finding those types of friends who can really bring out the fun side that can be really important.
[DAWN]
Yes. Okay. Tell us about eight.
[JAMES]
Yes. The type eight is called the challenger or the commander or the boss. This is a person that says I am powerful and is built there, built their personality around being powerful, confident, fearless, takes the bull by the horns kind of kind of folks. Their basic desire is to protect themselves and others. Eights do tend to view the world as a scary place. There’s dangerous people out there and somebody’s got to be the one to protect everyone. By all means it’s going to be me is what type eights think. And so on the flip side of that, their basic fear is to be violated or controlled. Eights are the sort of folks that will say no one is the boss of me. No one can control me. I’m in charge. Eights tend to be confrontational. Eights do not shy away from conflict usually. In fact, conflict is like intimacy sometimes for type eights.

They will seek out that conflict. They’ll kind of push and push to get you to respond. For these reasons eights can be very effective leaders. W see lots of eights in high levels of leadership in business or in other settings. Eights, because they also have this inclination towards protecting others can be very passionate about justice as well. Eights can be great crusaders for worthy causes for protecting the rights of the downtrodden or marginalized, to speak up for people that can’t speak for themselves, especially when healthy. Eights can be really great at that. They tend to just have a really high capacity for doing anything, doing, doing, doing. Type eight are into the third triad, which is the gut triad, the sort of center of ourselves that is focused on action and eights are people of action doing, doing, doing. It can do so many different things.

Eights tend to throw themselves full bore into whatever they’re doing, which is why the deadly sin for type eights is lust. And when I say lust, I don’t mean like sexual lust necessarily. It’s kind of just like an abundance of passion for everything. Eights are red blooded types that go hard after everything. And so that kind of lust for, whatever, lust for life, lust for power, it can become too much sometimes in type eights and they can steam roll over others or try to control everyone. When they’re really unhealthy eights can make demands on others that they don’t necessarily put on themselves. So it’s kind of a double standard for people. But yes type eights bring so many gifts in just their ability to get so much done. One of the great examples of the type eight that you’ll see sometimes in Enneagram literature is Martin Luther king Jr. You know using his power and strength to stand up for a worthy cause, to stand up for justice, to stand up for what was right in the face of tremendous injustice. That kind of shows you the best of type eights I think.
[DAWN]
Yes. You used the words that stood out for me when you were talking, you were saying healthy versus unhealthy. And I thought, I was thinking, as you’re talking about eights, I’m like of all the numbers that I think you notice when they’re unhealthy are eights. Like the most, I feel like that would stand out the most because they’re so the action oriented and they’re so intense. But yes, a healthy eight, man, oh my gosh, I want them on my team. You need a healthy eight. They’re amazing.
[JAMES]
Absolutely. I think eight stand out to us because they tend to be larger than life sort of people. So whether it’s healthy or unhealthy, the eights that we know, like, yes, you’re not going to forget about them.
[DAWN]
Yes. And then quite opposite would be nines. It seems like.
[JAMES]
Yes. So that’s so interesting. Eight and nine right next door to each other on the Enneagram. And so I think that nines, is maybe not as different as you might think though. Outwardly nines do appear very different than eights. Nines are called the peacemaker or the mediator and so this is the type that wants to avoid conflict usually, wants to keep everybody getting along. But nines do have a sort of internal strength that they don’t always show, but there’s definitely a strength to type nines. I’ve heard some interesting things about couples or partnerships that are one person that’s an eight and one person that’s a nine and it’s like a storm over a mountain, irresistible force meets an immovable object. So nines may seem very different than eights, but they do have a certain kind of strength, the strength of a mountain that can’t be moved.
[DAWN]
Yes. Because look at their wings, their wings are pretty strong wings.
[JAMES]
Exactly, exactly. So the basic desire for a nine is, it’s kind of for wholeness, to have this peace of mind for things to be in harmony. Nines want people to get along. That’s why they’re called the peacemakers. And so their basic fear is sort of the opposite, to be in this irreconcilable conflict, to be in a situation where things are fragmented, such that they could not be put back together. For this reason, nines go with the flow. They go along to get along often. They can seem so kind and sweet on the exterior. On the flip side though, nines do tend to be prone to passive aggression. Everything’s fine until like it’s, sometimes, for type nines, one of the gifts of nines is they really give other people their presence.

Nines have such a wonderful presence about them. The senior pastor that I worked for here at the church is a type nine and he really is excellent at that, in pastoral care and ministry, just being that presence, that non-anxious peaceful presence with people. Nines are also good at seeing all sides of a situation. A nine is the kind of person that everyone will think is on their side. If you go talk to a nine you’ll think, “Oh, they’re really on my side.” And someone that disagrees with you goes and talks to a nine, they might come away with the same.
[DAWN]
Same feel.
[JAMES]
Same idea.
[DAWN]
Wow.
[JAMES]
Yes. And so the deadly sin of type nines is sloth, which is kind of like laziness, which may not seem accurate right away because nines can work very hard. We see nines who are very active and doing a lot of things, but they may do a lot of different things in order to avoid doing the one thing that might bring conflict or the one thing that they don’t want to do. Nines do tend to procrastinate like that, kind of doing a lot of other things to avoid the thing that they’re afraid to do, or that might bring some conflict or they might have to confront someone in doing. Really hard for a nine.
[DAWN]
Yes. I think one of my sisters is a nine and we used to joke that she wouldn’t decide where to go to dinner or like she always deferred to someone else like, “Just make a decision.” But the more she’s grown in her personality, like, yes, nines can be, again, it’s all about the strengths of growing into your strengths and just being aware of the weaknesses and learning how to live in that tension of both and learning how to grow to the different numbers or even a wing or however.

Yes, absolutely. “I don’t know.” “Where do you want to go to dinner?” So with nines, if you know a nine, you work with a nine maybe or whatever if they do express an opinion, make sure you go with that, make sure you honor that opinion because it was hard for them to express that opinion. Nines struggle to make their own desires known and they can lose themselves in other people. And so when a nine does make a decision and let you know their opinion, by golly, do what they want to do.
[DAWN]
Yes. And I think that’s the other thing, the beauty of the Enneagram is once you learn other people’s numbers, you can like affirm their growth and their choices and you know the value like what they’re saying. And the value of that means so much more once you understand their personality. I think the Enneagram has been such a great tool for relationship building too. But some of our listeners today, I know a lot of our listeners are looking for more spiritual formation or spiritual engagement and I know we’re almost out of time, but if you could talk a little bit about how have you seen Enneagram really touching that spiritual realm for you or for people you’ve worked with.
[JAMES]
Yes, absolutely. I think the Enneagram can be a really helpful tool on our spiritual journey. I mean I’ve always kind of had this belief that faith should always be growing. Our faith can ever be evolving. I remember I read this book in seminary and this is kind of one of those texts that a lot of folks, I guess, get assigned if they go to a seminary program or Christian master’s program, so some folks might’ve heard of it, it’s James Fowler’s Stages of Faith. He goes through this kind of human development model as it relates to faith and so he outlines different stages that we kind of hopefully develop as we grow and get more mature in our faith. The highest stage for Fowler is what he calls universalizing faith and that’s a faith that happens when our ideals and our beliefs and values really line up with our actions. we start to see ourselves as like members of a whole, not just as individuals, but members of a collective, all of which can include all of humanity.

We see ourselves as one of this whole of humanity. And what’s interesting is that, Fowler says that we get there by going through a time of question, going through a time of struggle. So like a lot of us maybe getting into young adulthood or getting close to mid life, we are going through this period of questioning. We’re questioning the things we were brought up with. We’re wondering, okay how, how can this space be more mature? How can I grow my faith? How can it evolve to meet the demands of the world I find myself in and the demands of my own life? How can it be a faith that’s still true to who I am? All of this. And Fowler says, as we go through this process of realizing all of the contradictions and paradoxes and unnecessary divisions that were present in what we believe before then we can move into that higher stage of faith.

So the reason I think the Enneagram can be so helpful in this is that it helps us to go through that same process, that same process of questioning, that same process of wondering and discovering contradictions and discovering unnecessary divisions. But it helps us to do that in relation to ourselves. It helps us to do that in relation to the personalities that we’ve built up over the years, the things that have gotten us this far, but might be hindering us now. So I think that if we find ourselves in a place of wanting to grow our faith, or even a crisis of faith, maybe, the Enneagram is the perfect place to start for that journey to deeper faith. It can help us to see what struggles we might be inclined to, what deadly sin or pitfall we might be inclined towards and how we can grow out of it. I think it can help us to see the defenses that we’ve built up over the years, the less helpful and negative ways of looking at the world. And each type has their own journey of growth and I think the Enneagram can help us define a journey of growth that not only can lead us into a more mature faith, more mature connection, with the whole of humanity in the world, but also one that is really authentic for ourselves as well, in a way of connecting to God and to other people that really works for us as individuals.
[DAWN]
Yes. I love what you said about the universalizing faith. I think, yes, it’s so important as we, like you said, we developed a certain way of living up through probably our twenties and then we really start looking at how am I interacting with the world and people around me and maybe a family and work situation? And then like some of these things don’t work like they used to and what is that about and you have the Enneagram just takes you to such a deeper level. And for me, I think it was just noticing like the shadow side and just getting really real and honest with myself about that, and then feeling some shame with that. And I think a lot of people, as I’ve talked to people who have dug into their own type, when they are really honest, there is some shame about how much the shadow side is so true.

But just realizing what shame, like what helps us get out of shame is exposing it to light and just bringing that into a spiritual realm for me has been just really taking that before God and realizing God is not sitting here judging me. He has known my type. He has known my personality my entire life and just bringing that before Him and feeling his grace and love no matter what, no matter what stage I’m in of self-discovery or of deconstruction of faith or that He is big enough to handle wherever we’re at on our journey. And I do feel like the Enneagram has been so instrumental in yes, just helping that along.

It’s a very deep tool in my opinion. And I know we’ve only scratched the surface, James. I feel like we should have you on again, to talk about wings and triads and where we go in stress and where we go in comfort, because there’s so much more. Like we just literally scratched the surface. But yes, I think it’s one of the deepest tools and it has been very spiritual for me and I know others have just really felt a totally different way about the Enneagram than other tests.
[JAMES]
Yes, absolutely. I think as we get deeper into the Enneagram, it should help us to not only accept ourselves the way we are, accept that unconditional grace and acceptance that comes from God, but also to put us on that path to growth. There’s this quote from Carl Rogers that you see in a lot of Enneagram stuff that says the paradox is when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change. And that’s really what the Enneagram is all about. It can help us to accept ourselves just as we are to realize, as you said, from a Christian perspective that God accepts us just as we are, but also to begin that process of growth and change. And so I know for me, I can relate so much to what you just said, but for me personally, it’s been a lot about letting down some of those defense mechanisms.

You know, as a five, I tend to think that the world is going to drain my energy or intrude on me or that I’m not competent enough to engage with the world. So it’s kind of letting down that defense mechanism of isolation or letting that down, that defense mechanism of always seeking out more information. I don’t need to read another book about it and that really opens up those doors for greater, for me, greater engagement with the world or greater action, but each type has their own kind of journey that they follow in that way.
[DAWN]
Yes. Actually, me creating this podcast has really spoken into, and like touched some of the shadow side because a three is afraid of what people think of them and their performance. So as I’m doing the podcast, I’m used to talking to a live audience where I’m seeing reactions or I’m sitting across from a person and I can read their face. So here I’ve been going out on a limb, talking to people. I’m not seeing them. I don’t know how people are responding and so it’s been, it’s made me really grow through. “Okay. It’s okay. I still feel like I have something to say, something to share with the world, and I have to do it anyway and record before I know who’s thinking what.” And then that’s good for me, but it also, it hits my three side. It’s been powerful. I was thinking about that as we were going to record and like, “Oh yes, this is definitely harder for me as a three with, “What do people think? How am I performing?”
[JAMES]
Right. You don’t get that instant gratification of seeing the faces in the audience or whatever it is.
[DAWN]
Yes.
[JAMES]
Well, don’t get too wrapped up in the measureables. Don’t be checking your downloads every two seconds.
[DAWN]
Yes. I better have a list of do’s and don’ts for a three. Well, James, thank you so much. This has been super helpful. I think we’ll probably have to have you back to dive in some more on the Enneagram. If people want to get a hold of you to learn more about your work with the Enneagram and kind of follow you, what’s the best way to do that.
[JAMES]
Yes. The best thing people can do right now is to follow me on Instagram, @Working the Enneagram on Instagram and everything else. You’ll be able to get to from there.
[DAWN]
Great. Yes, I’ve been following it and it’s been super helpful. I’ve shared some of your posts and I’ve really enjoyed your perspective on the Enneagram. So yes, follow James at Instagram @Working the Enneagram. Thank you again, James so much. It’s been great talking with you.
[JAMES]
Thank you. This is awesome.
[DAWN]
Thank you for listening today at Faith Fringes Podcast. If you want to explore more of your own faith journey, I offer my free eight-week email course called Spiritual Reflections, where you take a deeper dive into your own story included as a journaling workbook that has guided exercises. So if you want to explore more of what you were brought up to believe, or even look at where you may have been disillusioned or hurt, but yet still deep down you desire to authentically connect with God, then this course is for you. Just go to faithfringes.com to sign up.

Also, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email and tell me what’s on your mind. You can reach me at dawn@faithfringes.com.

Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.