ARE YOU AT A CROSSROADS IN YOUR PRACTICE? LIVE CONSULTATION WITH MICHELLE CROYLE | EP 54

[DAWN GABRIEL]
Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, your host of Faith Fringes podcast, recording live from Castle Rock, Colorado. I am a licensed professional counselor, owner of a counseling center and a sacred space holder for fellow therapists. This podcast is for those who want to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. I create intentional space to explore your own spiritual path, a space that allows doubt, questions and curiosity without the judgment or shame, a place to hear another story and dive deeper into how to have a genuine connection with God.

For my fellow therapist, listening, I will often pull back the curtain of our layered inner world that comes with our profession. I bring an authentic and experienced way to engage your spiritual journey in order to connect you with your deepest values for true renewal and soul care. But really this podcast is for anyone listening who’s desiring a deeper and genuine connection with God. For those of you wanting to engage your spirituality in new ways, Faith Fringes is for you. Welcome to the podcast.

Welcome back. This is Dawn, your host of Faith Fringes podcast. Thank you so much for hanging out with me today. I am so excited that the next few episodes that we are going to, you’re going to listen to are going to be some live consulting. I have recently moved more into consulting with specifically with Christian therapists, who their faith is important and they want to integrate their faith into how they run their group practices. I love it. As I spoke at Faith in Practice conference in Jekyll Island, Georgia. That was amazing and it just really solidified my desire to work with faith-based practices and people who really want to have the value of their faith integrated into running their business.

I found that it’s very hard to find people like that. Whitney Owens is one of the only ones I know that really offers that and her and I have a lot in common. We run our practice very similarly where we both, we don’t necessarily market as Christian counselors, but all of the people on our team have the same faith and it’s a big value and we love working with our team. So as I went to the conference, I realized there’s so much needed in that realm of integrating that, and people have tons of questions on how to do it and how to market it. I actually sat on a panel and talked about how to market your faith-based practice whether that was overtly or even covertly. I just loved it. I came alive.

I’ve done consulting in the past. I’ve done quite a bit of consulting in the past, but this really helped me hone in on what makes me come alive. So I thought it would be fun to get on here and have my listeners hear me do some live consulting, because my consulting’s a little bit different. I could sit, I can, and I have sat and talked about action plans and business. I’ve done group practice for seven years. So I feel like I’ve went through a lot and I love sharing my failures so that you don’t have to, as you’re building your practice and we can step around that. But I also just love getting beneath to the motivation of why you want to do a group practice and not only that, but when you’re in the midst of it and some hard things come up, you need support. I have needed that support. That support has been instrumental in growing my business, whether that has been another group practice owner that is friends with that knows better than anyone else, what I’m talking about.

I started learning that actually 2020 with COVID. I reached out to two of my friends who were group practice owners and I felt like no one else could relate except them at that time with just juggling all the decisions. Another way is getting a consultant who specializes in that. That has been super helpful for me, just even talking with Whitney, her and I are friends, it’s just so helpful to be around like-minded people. So that is what I want to do. But the other thing I do is I integrate some soul care exercises or some spiritual direction in with it, because for me that is what has made the difference for me. So you’ll see a little bit of that and it might seem weird because it might not seem like consulting when we dive into it.

I have my friend Michelle Croyle who owns a group practice and she just started her practice, I think a year, a year and a half ago. She’s trying to decide whether she wants to go back to solo or keep expanding into more group and adding more clinicians. She had a rough situation happen, I think a few weeks ago with a clinician leaving. That just left a bad taste in her mouth. So that is what we are going to dive into today and talk about that. She definitely wanted me to integrate her faith into it and see where God was at in the midst of it. So you hear me talk through that with her and then we move into like a meditation time for her to enter in with God. So that you’ll hear that and how that helps.
[DAWN]
I just really believe it’s powerful when people who have that faith and they really want the integrated. I love combining that with consulting. It’s one of my passions. So that’s what you’re going to hear today and feel free to reach out to me with any questions you may have or if you see, see, or hear something you like and you think, hey, I think I want to ask on some more questions. I might want that type of consulting. I’m happy to answer your questions. I do pre consultation calls. But yes, so let’s listen in and listen to Michelle Croyle today as she comes on as my guest. Okay, Michelle, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being my guest today.
[MICHELLE CROYLE]
Hi Dawn. So nice to talk with you again.
[DAWN]
Yes. I’d love for my listeners to just hear a little bit about you. Tell us about yourself, your business, and then we’ll jump in.
[MICHELLE]
Okay. So I am first and foremost, a Christian, a wife, a mom of three young adults. My youngest is graduating this this spring. So there’s a lot of transition in my life. At the same time as that, I’m also a group practice owner on a Pittsburgh based group therapy practice. I’m still trying to figure out if that’s where I really want to go with it. I think I do, but I’ve had some issues lately with one of my contractors and it has me rethinking what’s worth it and what isn’t. I believe I was called to it, but I’m also wondering if it’s the season. So yes, group practice person, but I really like doing the actual EMDR work with clients for Christian women with trauma. I like to focus there and now I’m trying to see, do I really want to branch out very much? Do I want to scale back and had a pretty negative experience? So the reason for the consult is just figure out how you can help me figure out what I need because I’m not really sure, exactly which direction I’m going in.
[DAWN]
Okay. So how long have you been in private practice with just you?
[MICHELLE]
Private practice, just me is three years.
[DAWN]
Okay. Then you were trying to start a group practice within this last year or how long?
[MICHELLE]
Yes. So it’s been about a year and a half that I’ve been trying to do that.
[DAWN]
Okay. Do you have people like, have you actually started and you have people working with you?
[MICHELLE]
Yes. I started with one person who was an independent contractor, brought her on about a year and a half ago and she stayed about six months. The only reason she left was, she was fine, she loved it, but she had a friend who resigned from a hospital job that was like a lot of money, full benefits and everything. She’s like, Michelle, I can’t pass it up. She was newly married. I said, okay, totally understand. Go with my blessing, no problem. Then I was like, yes, maybe I don’t want to do this group practice thing. Anyhow, I like this thing on my own.

When I then decided, no, I think it is God’s call because I want to be able to reach more people and help more people healing from trauma and have those resources for the community, I branched out again and got an independent contractor, two independent contractors and one is still with me. So that’s going on a year now. Everything’s fine there. The other one I had hoped once she got licensed to bring her on as an employee, because I, in the midst of all that I wanted to switch to an employee model. I was hoping to bring her on there and that’s what she came in under that once she got her license, she would consider moving into that and taking on as a full-time position.

Then she just blindsided me and like two weeks ago gave her resignation, so right is like within a month of her, about to be licensed. She started having some behaviors that tone wise I couldn’t tell if it was just because it was text or if she was really trying to challenge my authority or what was going on. So I had that discussion with her as we made this transition plan, but I was calling the meeting to, say, “Hey, this isn’t cool with me and what’s going on,” thing. She really appeared to be clueless that I was even feeling these vibes from her. But I passed it by some close friends of, is this just me? Am I looking at this wrong and feeling like I’m an alternate reality, trying to figure out, I don’t think I did anything wrong. I think I did everything the way I should. But investing myself so much and giving my heart so much to everything and then just not getting the same integrity back is like, I’m not expecting them to be me towards me.

But it is burning me out a little bit to go then why am I doing this to be back at the starting line again? Because the goal was that this would be the launch time and that I was already ramping up and now I’m back to hiring again. So I do have one person who also came on as a pre-licensed clinician and she’s filling up now. So I currently have two people still, but I’m like, do I want to go back to solo? Do I want to stay where I am? Is it worth putting all the time in? Then my daughter’s getting married. So it’s like, this is the last season I have for her at home. So it’s a lot of transition and just a lot of like, where do I put my time?
[DAWN]
I’m hearing a lot of moving pieces and monumental things in your life, like your daughter’s last time at home. Your other, there’s so much going on and what you’re describing is what I like to call the therapist matrix. Like there’s so many hats we wear as clinicians, but as business owners, as parents, as partners, as a boss, it’s different being a clinician and a boss. You’re used to working with people and you love working with women. It’s your passion, that’s what you do, and you’re a Christian. So we have all these things going on and it’s like this matrix of responsibility and each one can buy for its own, like you have to hold space for all. It’s overwhelming. So I feel validate you.
[MICHELLE]
Very well what I am, yes, exactly. Exactly.
[DAWN]
I want to validate that because I do think group practice does bring up way more than you realize or expected. and where you’re going, am I crazy or not? I heard you say that, like, am I crazy? I’m like, oh my gosh, she sounds so much like a group practice leader. I’m like, that’s, you’re totally there.
[MICHELLE]
Exactly where I’m supposed to be in this point.
[DAWN]
For me, I think it’s so important to have that validation. I remember when I started getting consulting and getting in group consulting things, that’s what I needed the most, was the validation and the connection, because it is such a lone place that you can’t talk to anyone else except a group practice owner.
[MICHELLE]
They don’t really get it. So fortunately, I am in Group Practice Boss with Whitney. It worked out really well. I mean, I’m still in that, but I’m not sure that, I don’t know, this whole boss piece for me.
[DAWN]
You’re still questioning it?
[MICHELLE]
Yes, because I’m not bossy. I think that’s the thing, I want to still be me and I lead, but I was me as I led and it brought out stuff I had to do that I would rather not do. I don’t like confronting, like confronting saying, hey, that wasn’t okay with me, things like that. Or like, theoretically, I don’t have a problem with it. Communication skills wise, I don’t have a problem with it. Internal disturbance, hate it with every fiber of my being. I’m like, why am I wasting my life energy with somebody else’s issues when I could just be happy with my clients, send them away, go on with my life? Yes, it’s dissonance. It’s really, it’s two different perspectives depending on which hat I’m wearing. Then there are times where it’s I’ll grow this thing, it’ll grow Pennsylvania. It’ll be amazing.
[DAWN]
Okay. So you have like two waring things going on and trying to figure out like, you really want to figure out, do I move forward with group practice or do I continue solo? Is that the main thing you’re wanting to like talk through?
[MICHELLE]
I think it’s more, do I stay smaller practice or is it worth it to do what it takes to actually see the financial payoff? Because the last year and a half the time, as you know and the money have been way more of an outlay than the return I’ve gotten so far. I just don’t want to do that. If that’s going to continue for five or 10 years, I don’t want to do that.
[DAWN]
Yes, you definitely need, that’s when I think as business, you have to know your numbers and run your numbers and have a plan and work with someone to work on that. So have you figured out at what level it would be viable, like how many clinicians you need.
[MICHELLE]
So right now I’m making a small profit, but it’s not worth it for the extra time that I’m putting into it.
[DAWN]
At what point would it be worth it, if let’s say it wasn’t the emotional energy?
[MICHELLE]
Would be worth it at about six.
[DAWN]
Six clinicians?
[MICHELLE]
Four to six clinicians. Then I don’t really want to deal with that many people.
[DAWN]
Okay. I would agree once you get to four to six, it’s definitely a different feel than two or three. You could stop seeing as many clients at that point too, usually. That’s when I was able to stop seeing clients or like not holding a full caseload and I was able to tone it down. So I could, because you really do have to pour into your team and either like clients on some level and yes, so you have to know, do I, would I prefer my time to do that or am I fine just pouring into clients?
[MICHELLE]
I think this is hard because when you said that I noticed something like activated in me going, no, not to you. I don’t want to pour into my team because I did that and the results I get with my clients, they get a real good payoff and I don’t get my language, like run over by a truck. But with the clinicians, I feel like I’m still doing the same type of stuff. It’s not the area that I enjoy. It’s not my sweetest spot. The clients are okay. I can do it, but is it worth it because clinicians are going to come and go whereas clients, when they get discharged, I know that they have worked through their stuff and that’s like a happy thing, bittersweet, but it’s okay to send them off. I’m like, if I pour into you, I’m expecting a certain result if I’m going to spend my time here. Since I can’t control it, that comes down to like a control issue. Like I don’t want to control it. I want people to go where they’re supposed to go. I just don’t know if I want them coming and going in stuff that affects my life.
[DAWN]
Absolutely. It affects your life way more than we would like to admit. It’s super emotional when someone leaves and it makes you question yourself and your business plan, but I want to push back just a little.
[MICHELLE]
Please, please. I need help
[DAWN]
You just push back a little because I’ve seen it where it comes up against our issues that are hard for us anyway. Like my whole thing with Faith Fringes is the edge of where we’re comfortable actually makes us grow. So I’m just saying, because the first three years of my business, I’m on seven years now of a practice, but the first three, I, it was like what you’re talking about, people in and out. I was constantly frustrated and crying, but I kept redesigning my business plan and I kept redesigning my contract to now I feel like I know I interview better. So I don’t get to this point way over here. I know what to look for in the interview before I hire that person so I know they’re going to stay longer.

I’ve also created a place where they can stay longer, but it took me three years because I was also on maternity leave and there was a bunch of other issues in there. It had nothing to do with. You could do it faster is what I’m saying. But I’m saying like, if you had more of a, why let one or two clinicians ruin if it is a dream, you’ve said a calling almost I heard before? I just want to check in with that before we go on letting it go, like how much does it fit a purpose button or calling that you feel is where I want to go
[MICHELLE]
Well and that’s yes, that’s a really good question and I think that’s exactly what I’m sitting with right now. It’s certainly easier to let it go from the perspective of the extra time, lack of compensation, carrying in and not having a certain outcome from certain people that I’ve pour into. As far as personally, I’m also very stubborn. So if I’m like noticing, oh, are you just taking the easy way out because you would prefer to, I’m not going to let myself do that.
[DAWN]
That’s good to know. That’s going to say personality, you know yourself.
[MICHELLE]
Yes. So I know that I’m stubborn. I’ll dig my heels and no, we decided we’re committed, we’re going to do it. We’ll just keep going. We’ll reconnect, redirect and all of that. Where I think it gets to be a struggle is because that is my, like I don’t let myself have the easy way out. I’m almost wondering if I’m trying to push too hard for something that is something easier because God’s burden is easy. So it’s like, because I’m self-aware of that tendency I almost don’t want to let myself off the hook, but then also because of that spiritual concept of, I can have grace with myself, it doesn’t have to be so hard, He’ll love me anyway even if I go work at McDonald’s, that’s totally like, okay.

Then I’m like, okay, which way spiritually is it? I’m in that place where I just need to be still with Him and figure it out. But I’m also still just like looking my wounds from a couple of weeks ago and going, maybe it’s just not the season. Maybe I revamped everything. I think that’s where I’m landing. There’s been some more strategy and stuff, but it’s still just, it was encouraging to hear you say that you went back and like refined it because that’s what I’m doing. The lawyer is now refining the contract and I’m deciding, do I want this W2 stuff to have all these extra bonuses or like benefits or do I want it to just be, I have easy clinicians coming in and out yes who are independent contractors and I just don’t invest as much, but I make sure that they’re in alignment with the purpose?

The calling part is that I had a close family member who had a brutal attack and they didn’t get the care that would’ve helped them. So to me, I went everybody who has had things that have hurt them through no fault of their own like a random brutal thing or a loss or whatever, I don’t want them ever to have to go through it alone. So that’s my purpose there with that. I’m not quite sure if that’s a, just not now thing it’s just a pause until my daughter gets married thing. Then she’s out of the house and I’ll need dogs occupy my time because, she takes a lot of my time now, like I just make space for everybody in the family. So if she’s off doing her life, then maybe there’s more time to pour in just trying to figure out what this next season looks like because I thought it was going to work differently.
[DAWN]
You bring up so many good points, Michelle, like part of you, and I could sit here and we could run numbers and we could go over W2s in 1099s. We could talk through that, but I know why you reached out to me is because I said, I want to integrate spirituality. Sometimes that means me shutting up and entering, we enter into the presence of God together because that’s important to you and there’s so much there that we haven’t tapped into. I think because we’re doers and I don’t know your personality a hundred percent, but I know my personality, I like to get things done and do it on my own. Like you said, I’m stubborn. I’m not going to let go. But there’s sometimes this, this spiritual realm that we have to be still and tap into, so I’m wondering like when, when you said that, have you had any time to enter before God about this or is it just like, I still have to do it, I still have to do it?
[MICHELLE]
Yes, well, so I was really close with him last week before I had this difficult conversation. I mean, it’s not that we’re not close now but the tension I had is more, I think where I am with him is like, yes, I’ll talk to you about everything else. I’m not quite sure even what I want to hear yet, like if I even want to pay attention right now. It’s almost like a stubborn child going, yes I’ll talk to you daddy, when, but right now I just want to not. I don’t want to talk about it. I just want to in this area, I just want to put it aside and just wait until the dust settles a little bit before, because I guess what I’m suspecting is that I do that even though he has grace and it’s light, he’s going to dust me off and I’m probably going to go back in again. I don’t really feel like that right now. So rather than pretending, like I do feel like that, like okay, I’m ready, I want to be honest with him and be like, I’m not ready yet.
[DAWN]
If you’re a therapist and you are feeling burned out or just needing a break and being around other therapists who really understand what you’re going through, or if you are feeling like you just need some space to connect with God and get grounded back into what really matters to you and your spirituality, I would like to invite you to come to a sole care retreat for therapist, exclusively for therapists. I host sole care retreats for therapists. I just love holding sacred space for you to just reconnect with yourself, reconnect with God and connect with others who are in the same profession and have probably experienced similar things as you have.

So I’m inviting you. My next retreat is September 23rd through the 25th, 2022 in Colorado. We will have about 10 rooms to ourselves in this little beautiful retreat center in the Black Hills Forest. We have three hot tubs, there’s trails around there, we can see the mountains. It’s so peaceful there. I just want to invite you to come and just experience what it’s like to have soul care. We do some guided exercises as a group. We also do guided exercises as individuals. I have a workbook that can help walk you through what do I do with all this downtime? Because I know, even though we are longing for the downtime, sometimes it’s hard to get there.

Sometimes we get anxious when we’re there or sometimes we get scared. So I will have a workbook that helps you walk through that, that gives you exercises to connect with God and figure out what’s really going on inside you. We also have there’s great food here. We have great conversations and there’s plenty of time to connect with one another and we have a lot of fun. So if you’re interested, send me an email, dawn@faithfringes.com. I only have 10 spots available for this retreat. We like to keep it small and intimate. Again, it’s September 23rd, 25th. That will be in Colorado. Reach out to me, dawn@faithfringes.com to find out more information today.
[DAWN]
But there’s part of you that sounds hurt and like, I’m just tired and I don’t know if I’m ready to go back in, like you said.
[MICHELLE]
Yes, I think that’s it. I care about God and what He wants. I don’t care to even care right now. That’s it. I feel like I just don’t even want to care about this right now. I want it to be gone for a while because it was such a hard season. Yes, there’s tears there because it’s just like, I don’t want to care anymore about hard stuff.
[DAWN]
It hits deep
[MICHELLE]
Yes. So if I go there with God, then I do care, which is why it hurts, which is why there’s tears, because that is the truth, but I was so hurt by it. It’s just like, I don’t feel like being hurt on that right now. It already wasted too much of my time? So yes, that’s —
[DAWN]
I want to grab back that control and not let it hurt me anymore.
[MICHELLE]
I don’t want it to hurt anymore and I don’t like cluttering up a good thing because everything’s good. I didn’t ask, I think that’s it, I didn’t ask for it. Of course, life happens and I get that. I don’t have a problem with, it’s not like I can’t let go of control. It’s more the fact that I think what it hits on is I did my part and I did my part really, really well but I didn’t yet reap what I sowed. I’m tired of sowing right now. So I’m not sure, is that just, okay, we stop sewing temporarily and we rest up and then we come back and sew some more, which is probably where it’s going to land, I think.
[DAWN]
But you don’t even look at, you’re just so tired. Michelle you’re allowed to be tired and you’re allowed to take a break. You are the owner. No one’s forcing you to do it.
[MICHELLE]
That’s the thing, am I allowed like, do I have that luxury? Because then people are, because I’m not there yet where I have a clinical director and so it’s like, everything comes to me like, oh, we have a tech glitch and we have this, that. I’m like, oh my gosh, this is so out of my, I have an admin, I have a billing person and I have the therapist and then everything else right now before I level up comes to me. I’m just at that place where, oh my gosh —
[DAWN]
There’s too much.
[MICHELLE]
Yes, I don’t want to hear what’s going wrong with tech. Call the tech place. It’s just, I don’t want to fix it. I don’t care about a co-pay or co-insurance or how insurance messed up. I don’t want to hear from a clinician that oh, well I haven’t been paid this yet because the insurance hasn’t paid it yet. I’m like, no, I didn’t go into billing. I went in to help people with trauma. It’s just an, I guess the question is being self-aware of all these different parts and not wanting to let off the hook, but also wanting to have grace. The question I guess, comes down to, at what point am I just being dumb and banging my head against a wall that I really was never called to and at what part is it that I am called to, which I suspect, and then how do I stop doing the things that I can’t stand doing and delegate them when I don’t have the time or the money yet to do it?
[DAWN]
Right. Yes, you’re at that growing point where it’s painful because, and —
[MICHELLE]
I feel like I’ve just been there too long now.
[DAWN]
Yes, and you’re tired, I’m hearing, you’re tired. So I want to go back to that because again, there are systems and plans and we can figure all that out but I feel like what you’re really longing for is to, if you don’t mind, I would to do a guided meditation, maybe get you into the more experiential place with God. Yes. I know you said you don’t, so that’s why I’m just double checking because you were like, I don’t want to do that with God.
[MICHELLE]
I do want to do it with God. I don’t want to have to do work. I want the rest in connection with God. I don’t want to have to go back out and like, have to do and whining and, that’s what I don’t want.
[DAWN]
I want you to just take a moment and, if you don’t mind, like take some deep breaths and just slow your head down, slow your breathing. Just take a few minutes to slow down for a minute, just notice what thoughts and feelings or bubbling up as you slow your breathing down. I’m going to recite a stilling prayer and just notice what comes up as we do that. Just be there. You don’t have to think or do anything. So take another deep breath and just let it go be still and know that I am God, be still and know that I am, be still and know that I, be still and know, be still, be, be still, be still and know, be still and know that I am, be still and know that I am God.
[MICHELLE]
It’s like a father saying, why are you worried? You know I always got.
[DAWN]
Is that what you heard?
[MICHELLE]
Yes. It just very much, like, yes, I know if I ever knock, I got you, I got you.
[DAWN]
It’s okay. So if God was there with you in the car, close your eyes again and where might He be with you right now? Where do you picture Him?
[MICHELLE]
He’s right here by my left side.
[DAWN]
Okay. Just take a moment to focus on that with you on your left side. I want you to tell Him internally, externally, whatever you want to tell Him what’s going on and tell Him what you need from Him. Just listen to what He says.
[MICHELLE]
Lord, I need you to come into this messy place for your purposes. I don’t want my will to be done. I want your will to be done. But if this isn’t your will, I don’t want to do it. So I need you to tell me what your will is, what your steps are because that’s who I am. That’s what I want to do. I want you to have control over this, but I don’t want to waste precious time on stuff that’s going to just take away from the blessings that I’m certain that you have with family and finances and friends and good stewardship of my home. It’s not worth it to me at the cost of the things that I know that I know that I know are my blessings and the things I’m doing tend to like my clients. So Lord, if this is how you want to scale up, I give that to you. I do what you ask me to. If you could give time for a breather, I would love that, but I don’t want to do it if I’m just thinking I heard you and somehow, I got it wrong and I don’t want to give up if I’m supposed to keep doing it, because it is your calling, but there’s a better way to do it than the way I’ve been trying. So please come into whatever that would be. Thank you so much Jesus.
[DAWN]
I want you to picture holding out, calling to Him right now on the left side and hold it up to Him and just sit and listen as He looks at that and listen to what He might say to you right now. Just take some time, it’s okay, that it’s quiet. Take your time with him and just hear what he has to say to you.
[MICHELLE]
I felt like that versus, be still, but also the verse I, the Lord will make it happen. So like, you don’t have to do this. You don’t have to do anything. I’m going to do it. Like I’m going to make it happen. So I don’t have to worry about, I think the sense of I’m just managing what he’s doing. I don’t have to make it happen.
[DAWN]
It sounds very relieving.
[MICHELLE]
Yes, because I thought, what am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong? How come I’m not doing well with this? But I did do well with it. I just can’t control the outcomes and I’m not supposed to.
[DAWN]
You can’t base how good or not good you’re doing if a clinician comes or goes. We cannot do that. It’s hard to. I know it’s hard. I do it, every time I cry it just lessens each time. I learn to come back quicker. But that’s normal. So, so you said you heard God saying this is, let me take this.
[MICHELLE]
It felt like, yes, because I also noticed inside me, but now wait, am I really hearing you? Are you sure? Because if I let go of control of this to you, then the struggle inside me was if I let go of this control to you, then how do I know? I’m not just going to easily put it aside, like if I go further down, that thought is how do I know I’m not going to accidentally put something on the side that I was entrusted to do that I was supposed to do? Because I could easily walk away from it and be like, okay, well God’s going to do it. Oh, he didn’t do it. Oh, well shucks. I’m okay. I’m free. I don’t think that that’s not really what I’m feeling, but I think that’s the resistance, is Lord, if I let this really be, as I believe what, what I’m hearing is that Michelle I’m going to make it. Do I really trust him that he won’t break it, He will make it happen, He will open the doors?

I think that’s where I need to grow, is I do but then there’s another part on the other side of the fence that’s yes, but what about the fact that we also have responsibility and ownership to make things happen too? It’s like that analogy of not just sitting in your house and waiting for Mr. Right to show up at your door. You go out and meet people and do things that. So I think that’s pretty much it is. I don’t want to let myself off the hook for responsibility.
[DAWN]
Where is that coming? Where’s that coming from, letting myself off the hook for responsibility specifically with God? Where does that come from?
[MICHELLE]
That’s a really good deep introspective question. I’m going to have to think about that for a minute. You’re good.
[DAWN]
Well, and it’s hard because I know sometimes it feels like a counseling session, but it really is part of our business. We have to ask these hard questions because I’m not sure that’s from God. I’m just questioning it.
[MICHELLE]
Well that’s okay. Can you ask the question again?
[DAWN]
You have this intense thing with like, if I miss my calling, if I did the wrong thing and I accidentally miss something that God wants me to do, there’s so much pressure on you of this, I have to be responsible. So I was like, where’s that coming from? Is that from God? I’m just curious.
[MICHELLE]
Well, yes, okay, that, so then the phrase, and I don’t believe this, but the logically, the body memory is just this, I’m not allowed to not be perfect. Now of course I know I’m not perfect, but that’s different than what this physical body embodiment sense is. I’m not allowed to be human. I’m not allowed to, I guess what I’m saying is if we talk parts language, it’s an old part. So it’s an old part. It’s a very familiar old part. I’m not allowed to have feelings. I’m not allowed to be upset. I’m not allowed to speak my truth. I don’t feel that way. It’s family of origin. Crap.
[DAWN]
Yes. Well, and the reason, and this is why I love working with a therapist, because we can get right there in two minutes but how does that apply to your business? Because that’s coming up. When that therapist left, it took you right back there. That’s what I’m saying. Bring that part. We might not, we probably don’t have time today, but that’s what I want you to bring before God and saying, because you’re connecting that with letting go of your business or keeping your business, it’s like getting in there. I’m saying owning a business brings up all our crap.
[MICHELLE]
All our crap. Yes, yes.
[DAWN]
If we don’t know it, I mean you know it, but you’re not realizing how much it’s attached to the business right now. That’s what I want you to enter in.
[MICHELLE]
I love that question that you said. I won’t go down that track for you because I do respect your time.
[DAWN]
That’s okay.
[MICHELLE]
But it’s tied to the question towards that contractor. I know I did a good enough job. I know I did everything decently and well, and even more than other employers would do it. Why wasn’t I good enough? That’s old stuff.
[DAWN]
Yes. So Michelle, I want you again, one more time to just close your eyes, bring that realization right now that I’m not good enough and the calling and the contractor, just if it was like an object, what would that be? The calling the picture, the Contra, like what do you call that?
[MICHELLE]
I’m sorry, you mean the feeling of the yicky stuff or?
[DAWN]
Yes. All of the, what’s the feeling of all the stuff coming together right now? What do you feel?
[MICHELLE]
I think it’s, that’s good. I don’t know if it’s shame or fear. Maybe a mix of both, but I guess overall it is frustration. Yes, it’s frustration. It feels like, look, I’ve been trying to play by the rules. I’ve been trying to do my part and it doesn’t sit with the word, never once come up from that old part of self. And it never is good enough to matter how much I do, how good I get. I’m always going to be the one who gets hurt.
[DAWN]
That’s the part I want you to, does that have a color or a shape right now in your body?
[MICHELLE]
It’s like a pukey green.
[DAWN]
Where are you feeling that in your body?
[MICHELLE]
A pukey green cloud like morphing shape in my head, chest, upper stomach. It’s just pukey.
[DAWN]
Okay. I want you to focus on that right now. I’m sure you’re used to this because I know you specialize in trauma. I do. I want you to focus on it, bring that pukey green shape in your head. I want you to bring that and I don’t know if God has changed position in your car or, but I want you to picture Him with that shape right now with you and how does he look at you with that and what does he do with that green pukey shape in your head and just let him into that and what does he do and what does he say? Just take a moment there.
[MICHELLE]
It got the sense of it just shrinking into like a box, like a container of like a square and Him being bigger than it, me being bigger than it and just holding this like relatively small enough to medium box that goes, yes, that was just a puzzle piece, like a part of the story. We can just put that aside. That’s not a part of this. That’s yes, I know it’s there, but that’s really not, that’s nothing that you have to have with you. It’s contained. It’s something you’re aware of, but it doesn’t have to intrude here and then just Him being really large and then me being like the middle size and then the box being the thing that is small and moveable and just, we can decide what to do with that junk. We can move it over here, we can contain it. We can know it’s there, but it doesn’t have to inform anything going forward. It can just be its own like, yes, it was that way. It’s okay. It can be gone now. We can know it as part of history, but it doesn’t have to be going forward. It’s not related.
[DAWN]
Yes. So what does that feel like to put it in a little box that you control now?
[MICHELLE]
That’s really good. It feels like, oh, okay, I wasn’t wrong. I’m noticing, feeling like, I think the internal cry was, why do I keep getting hurt? What am I doing wrong? Now that it’s contained in then God’s like, you didn’t do anything wrong. It’s just, yes, that’s what it was and you didn’t do anything wrong. It just is what it was. Same with the same with the clinician. I didn’t do anything wrong. She just had free will to move and has no reflection on me. If it did, she could have brought it up. But God says I didn’t do anything wrong.
[DAWN]
You don’t have to be perfect that. Well, I’m sorry. Say that again.
[MICHELLE]
Unless He convicts me there’s no point to carry that.
[DAWN]
Yes. That’s the thing. I think when we group practice owners, or even therapists, we overdo everything in our heads. We take responsibility for so much, because we’re so used to caring for people that we forget to do that care for ourselves and realize, wait, all this is not ours. Like put that back in the box. These are some old wounds coming up.
[MICHELLE]
Yes, that’s all that —
[DAWN]
I tell you what though, Michelle, you’re not alone. This is so common. I hear this all the time, different versions of the green blob, with different people, but it’s very similar. We all go through this and it’s learning to know which things are going to bring that up because in group practice will, it just will. I know we didn’t discuss, we didn’t get to, and I don’t want you to answer, am I going this way or that way, I want you to just take some time to marinate on it and see what you feel in the next week and come back to this analogy even.
[MICHELLE]
Yes, because it’s not even really a, like, I love that you did that because it’s not about that. It’s not even about whether I go forward or not. God’s got that.
[DAWN]
Yep. You don’t have to make that decision today.
[MICHELLE]
I don’t. I’m just going to keep serving him. It was about the fact that I didn’t understand why it felt like a replay of, I don’t know why I’m not good enough. I don’t know why I’m being hurt when I’m trying to do the things by the rules. I’ve always been like a rule player. I’m like, I’m playing the rules. Why am I getting in trouble?
[DAWN]
Yes, very similar, but you know why, because we live in a fallen world and everybody’s human and no one’s perfect. Even therapists who you think are amazing at first, they’re human too. They have choice.
[MICHELLE]
I think my human part hates that.
[DAWN]
I know. I don’t like, because it’s vulnerable, way more vulnerability when you’re in this leadership position. Totally agree.
[MICHELLE]
Well, I really appreciate you taking the time with me because this was immensely helpful to notice all those parts of self, notice God in all of this, notice what I was bringing in that was old toxic crap. But also when you said vulnerable, the thing that I noticed when you first had me get still, and you did that meditation, the first thing that I noticed was how nice it is that I can be vulnerable with someone who can help me because as therapists, we don’t get that chance as often as probably would be beneficial, at least for me. That I don’t get it as much as because, well who’s out there to care for you? Well, I don’t know. I’ve been too busy caring for everybody else. So it just that’s what I first noticed was oh, good. Help is here. She knows what to do with this. I don’t have to have the answers here. Then of, of course
[DAWN]
And I didn’t know either. I was like, we need to enter in to God’s presence together. That’s what I feel is different about what I’m doing now. My consulting intersects the spirituality, but I still have that consultant hat on. Then I hold that space spiritually. That’s what I feel like was missing in my life. I would either get consulting, but they weren’t bringing in spiritual or I would get counseling, but I didn’t really need counseling. I needed someone who knew all those worlds to just get in and out. That’s it. So that’s offering people because I think we need it. We need someone who can wear all the hats, wear all the hats, get in and out and yes, so that’s what I’m launching my consulting more because I feel like it’s so, this intersection is needed. It is for people of faith.
[MICHELLE]
You’re really good at it because those are the things that just, that’s it when you went, when you’re like, okay, do it this way. I’m like, okay, I can attune to that, but I couldn’t do it on my own because I was in emotions.
[DAWN]
I’m the same way. I’m the same way. I have to have my own people do it. Thank you for being so vulnerable. Am so touched that you, and that you can still decide not to air this, just so you know, I want to give you full rights.
[MICHELLE]
I’m totally comfortable with that. No, you go can help somebody. That’s all right by me.
[DAWN]
I feel like it will. But you were so brave and vulnerable. I really, really appreciate it.
[MICHELLE]
That’s because I’ve already confronted so much in my life.
[DAWN]
You’re like I’m already self-aware. Other therapists are going to eat this up because they’re like, thank God. I don’t feel alone.
[MICHELLE]
Well, thank you for everything. I mean even just normalizing it and calling it because yes, I couldn’t, I knew there was some stuff there, but I couldn’t figure out what it was on my own. I wasn’t able to be vulnerable enough with God. I guess, I could’ve and I wanted to, but I think because of where I was stuck, I felt like, but then he’s going to send me back in.
[DAWN]
I know and I’m not ready to go back in.
[MICHELLE]
I’m normal that wasn’t God, like pay attention to God. This is old crap.
[DAWN]
Yes, yes. No, like God was definitely here with us. He was the one directing. I think yes, it’s just so important for us to create that space for ourselves. But yes, we need people to journey with us. We can’t do this alone. We weren’t made to be alone. So I appreciate that. Thank you for coming on and I will talk to you after we stop the recording.
[DAWN]
Thank you for listening today to the Faith Fringes podcast. For those of you wanting to take a deeper dive into your own faith journey, you can grab my free email course, Spiritual Reflections on my website, faithfringes.com. If you’re a therapist and would want to work with me, I offer sacred space holding for you through my consulting as well as my soul care retreats. To find out more, go to my website or email me at dawn@faithfringes.com.

I live hearing from all my listeners. Drop me an email to tell me what’s on your mind. You can also connect with me on social media. I’m on Facebook and Instagram at Faith Fringes. As always, if you’re enjoying this podcast, I would love it if you could show it by your reviews. Go to Apple Podcasts and leave your review so that others can find this podcast and get curious about their own spiritual journey. Thanks again for listening.

Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.