[DAWN GABRIEL] Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, host of Faith Fringes Podcast, recording live from Castle Rock Colorado, not only where I love to live, but I also work as the owner of a counseling center in the historic downtown. This podcast is a place to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. For those desiring deeper connection with God and engaging their spirituality in new ways, this will be a safe place to allow doubt, questions and curiosity, without judgment. We will be creating intentional space to listen in on other’s faith journeys, whether that is deconstruction or reconstruction, with the hope of traveling alongside you on your own spiritual path. If you’re interested in getting even more out of this podcast, grab my free email course Spiritual Reflections on my websitefaithfringes.com. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome back to the podcast, spiritual explorers. This is your host Dawn Gabriel, coming live from Castle, Rock Colorado. I am very excited today to be back. I’ve actually just gotten back from a few weeks off from COVID and it was awful. So I’ve never been so excited to just get back to things that I love and get back into just talking to people and just being back into what I’m passionate about and not being sick. It’s so nice to be back. Today I’m going to be interviewing a friend who I actually met a few years ago. We both own group practices and counseling, and I met her through a group I was in and she has been instrumental and just personally my running of my business. We have walked through some things together and with her and another woman that we’ve been meeting with for about I think, two years. I’m just so excited to hear more about her faith journey as she has been with me the whole time that I’ve started the podcast and we’ve talked a lot about it. And I finally said, Hey, let’s get and do an interview on the podcast. So I’m so excited to introduce Nessa Smith today. Nessa is the owner and director of Angelus Therapeutic Services, which is a private practice in Western Pennsylvania. She has a master’s in social work and an MBA in management and I’m so excited to hear from her today. I think you guys will really enjoy just listening to her story. She has quite an amazing faith journey story, and I have not heard at all, and I’m just really excited to have conversation about it. So Nessa, welcome to the podcast. [NESSA SMITH] Thanks Dawn. I’m really excited to be here. [DAWN] Yes. So Nessa, how long have we known each other? I was trying to remember in the intro. I was like, wait, how many years has been, is it two or three? [NESSA] it’s probably somewhere in between the two of them, when we were just trying to get a whole bunch of the group practice stuff organized and getting things in the right place. [DAWN] Yes. And I just remembered, one of my favorite memories of you Nessa is when COVID first hit back in 2020, I remember texting you a lot, you and Michelle, and we were like, oh my gosh, what are we going to do? It was just instrumental in my mental health to have you and Michelle there to talk through things. So, yes, that’s what I remember the most. Well, today I’m so excited to hear more of your story. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your spiritual background, anything you want to share that maybe can have people understand where you’re coming from? When did your faith journey start? [NESSA] Well, trying to think backwards, I am Presbyterian. I was raised Presbyterian. We used to walk to a church downtown when I was little, because we didn’t have a car. My mom didn’t have driver’s license. So we would walk every Sunday down the street to the little Presbyterian church and then walk back home afterwards. I’m still going to that church to this day, obviously, not as often, not obviously, but not as often as I should be or I’d like to be, but it’s been the same congregation and journey pretty much through my child into adulthood. So there are some people that have been involved in my faith journey since I was very small that have been positive and some that have taught me a little bit about what I don’t want to do and what I don’t want to be for other people. [DAWN] Wow. It’s rare to hear someone who stayed at the same church since they were little, especially to me. I’ve moved so much, I’ve went to so many churches that I can’t even fathom being in the same church. That’s amazing. [NESSA] There’s a lot of elements of it that are very much like a family. [DAWN] Yes, for that long. Wow. So your family started out taking you to church but what do you feel like, when did you really feel like your relationship with God kind of became more personal and not just your family’s relationship with church? [NESSA] I think that has been sprinkled throughout when we talk about family relationship. My mother would go to church. My father was very, very much anti-church, anti-religion, not very friendly about the whole experience. So that was something that I kind of noticed early on is how different views could be and trying to figure out how I should feel and how I do feel and then like, what does that mean? Being younger, kid, high school, even early adulthood, it’s just something you did because you’re supposed to do it. I don’t know that I had a close, intimate relationship until I started growing into who I am as a person and being able to see what does that sense of faith or connection mean to me, which is a lot deeper than going to a building or going to through certain scriptures or reading a passage. I started experiencing it as a state of being. So I would say in the last 10 years, it’s been getting a lot stronger into the concept of feeling connected to something bigger without always having to have the formalities involved. [DAWN] Yes. I love how you said that. A lot of times I think people experience that where they’re going to church because one of their parents is going and it’s just what you do and what you should do. But then I like the words you said, like the more intimate relationship with God developed later in your adulthood or maybe even after high school. Yes, and I know when we were talking before you had mentioned that there were some big turning points in your life, in your story that really were probably very painful, but they also drew you closer to God. And I know that’s one of my pillars of the podcast, just looking at people’s pain and stories and how, that when we do, I mean, life is hard at times and when we embrace that pain and hurt, it can make us closer to God. So I’m just curious if you have any turning points that you can think of that really pop up when I say something like that. [NESSA] I think it would be like a two-part answer for me. It would be like changing moments. I think it’s that period of time when there’s an awareness of what happens back here, how that really dramatically impacted and how it’s set up something later in time. Just a little bit of background about me as a person, I am 42 and when I was less than a year old, I was diagnosed with polio. It was a very uncommon thing back when I was a child. So that had left me in a hospital for a little while and then with a lot of physical disability. It affects mostly my right side. So I wear a leg brace, don’t exactly run or move very quickly. I had numerous surgeries throughout high school trying to correct things in wheelchairs, crutches, the whole wonderful ordeal. And obviously growing up that never goes over well. Anything that makes you different in a social scenario is like the bane of your existence. Everyone just kind of wants to fit in, or at least I did want to blend into the background and being the person who was the did not really allow me to do that. But it did allow me as I was going through life and especially as I got later on to do some more reflection is to really see other people for who and what they are by how they respond to somebody and really see how that shifted and changed my perspective and changed who I developed into as a person. You know, what I see as with purpose, with struggle and strife or how having something not work out, having something that you pray for and you hope for, and you just want so much to wake up in the magic pixie dust fixes it; how there’s a reason. So there’s those unanswered prayers, because they’re necessary part of your journey, even if they’re part of you would absolutely never choose. Who would ever want to say, okay, I’m going to be disabled. I’m going to stand out in every crowd. I’m going to have to have seven surgeries in three years. No one would pick that. But I don’t think that I would have the career direction I have, the compassion or the drive to help others if I hadn’t needed so much out myself. [DAWN] Wow. I feel like there’s so much there just hearing that. I mean, I’ve heard bits and pieces of your story, but hearing it all in one place just so much, I mean, it sounds like what I’m hearing you say is that at age one, you developed polio and from that, I mean, basically since your whole life, you’ve been dealing with that. And now that you’re 42 back, you’re saying I would’ve never picked that, but I also have chosen to use that to help others to, it sounds like it’s grown you in compassion and in kindness and understanding. I mean, it’s probably one of the reasons you’re a therapist. [NESSA] It is. It’s also helped me get financially, socioeconomically out of where I came from. I was very poor growing up. We had a lot of money difficulties, just kind of, you didn’t know if you were always going to have electricity or water or food. It was what it was, but because I was disabled, I was able to get grants through OVRR that paid for college. I was able to get social securities for the year I was in college, things that let me have opportunities that I probably wouldn’t have had if I was physically completely healthy. I may not have gotten to college. I may not have explored those as options for myself. If there wasn’t this team already working for me saying, here are some options that are available for you because you’re disabled. [DAWN] Wow. Yes, I mean I definitely cane can see how social work it was in your future when you say that, but I mean, that’s amazing, like just your background of coming from, like you said, poverty, but then also realizing if I wasn’t disabled, I might not have went to college. I just love your perspective and I know you, so I also know you’re a very positive person and just very focused and you’re very big on your choices and making life work. But I also, what you said a little bit ago about just, I kind of want to go back to, of sitting with, I prayed and prayed for things to be different and those unanswered prayers. Can you talk a little bit more about how does that work? Because, I mean, we’re both talking about this, looking back almost, but can you kind of go back to those moments? Because I’m sure some of my listeners can probably relate. They might be in the middle of praying for something and it’s not answered and what do you do with that part of the journey? [NESSA] Thinking back in particular I have one period of time in my life that really comes up for me. I had one of the elements related with polio is the head shrunk all the muscles bones on the right side. So I had to have a set of surgeries that were called a leg light thing or they broke it, sucks and pins in. Every single day I had to turn these pins a quarter millimeter at a time. So I turned a millimeter a day and I had to stretch my own bones as it’s starting, supposed to grow in between to connect itself. Wasn’t the most pleasant process, I learned during those surgeries that I’m actually immune to pain medication. I have no response to it. So it’s like doing this every day as a 15 year old girl in a wheelchair in high school and they’re like, okay, we’re going to turn it, we stretch it and then you’re going to get out of the wheelchair. So three months, that’s it. It’s like, okay, minutes come, hated it, hated it, couldn’t move around, get to a doctor, and they were like, okay, we’re going to stop hurting, but you’re not healing. So we’re going to be another three months. And I think I ended up being in the wheelchair, I think a total of eight months at that point and I just remember being absolutely devastated when the doctor told me. Because a 15 year old girl that’s, the world is ending, sky’s falling, nothing’s ever going to be okay again. I remember being in the doctor’s offices, as they’re telling that and I being a dramatic 15 year old girl, I mean some type of suicidal statements of that world ending and kind of then get myself assessed of, do I need to be hospitalized, which I didn’t. But it’s like getting home and just like breaking down and just crying and praying and being so mad at God in order and the way life is built, that I would still be trapped. I had a reality check of how different perspectives people are. I mean, at that time I’m devastated and upset and I have a teenage friend of mine who gets upset and she’s like, well I have, someone’s going to break up with me. Why are you so upset? It’s like, it’s okay. Different perspectives. We’re emotionally at the moment. But seeking that, seeing if I would’ve, if there’s prayers of, if I never would’ve had polio because in our minds, when we pray, we somehow think that the magic pissy dust is going to turn back time. And prayer doesn’t work that way. We can’t pray for something to not have happened. We can pray for coping and strength and supports to get us through it. We can pray for forgiveness and closure and being able to move past things. But those mindsets it’s like, if it’s not going to fix everything, then it’s not what I want. And then the more it doesn’t happen, the angry kind of you’re getting and resentful and kind of discounting the God factor of well, if He is there, I’m pissed off at Him. And if He’s not there, what’s the point of it anyway? [DAWN] Yes. I think you’re saying some things that are so true that people feel in the midst of when their prayers aren’t answered and they’re in like emotional or physical pain. I mean, I’m just sitting here going, oh my gosh, a 15 year old wrestling with that? Of course you’re bad. I don’t care. Actually would not matter what age. I think any age would wrestle hard with that. And I think what I’m hearing you say is it’s not so much, when we pray a lot of times when people pray, we think like you said, it’s like the prosperity gospel, like if I do this, then this’ll happen. And we keep God in such a limited capacity in our heads but what you were saying, I heard a lot of deeper emotional truth coming through, like you said just kind of being, how did you say it? You said it so much better than I’m trying to paraphrase but you were saying, what you were kind of saying is the results that happen when our prayers aren’t answered, there’s actually some deeper emotional truths that come from that of realizing I am stronger than. I think I’m not alone. God’s here with me and he can handle that I’m mad, scared, doubtful. Like there’s so many deeper truths that came out of it. And in our 15 year old mind or whatever age we are, when we’re struggling of saying, no, it has to look this way versus, but look at all the emotional strength and truth that you’ve come up with. [NESSA] And then you get those aha moments so much later down in time. You know, going into counseling and work, I spent 15 years working at a community mental health center. So you’re working with people who are struggling at times the worst times of their lives. They’re really just having difficulty with every element. I remember I had done multiple rotations of running different groups and did a year, seven years of teaching anger management, court order, that was loads of fun but I also had started to run CBT for chronic pain and running group counseling based on that. And there was a very quick realization that if I was not disabled, if I had not gone through those elements, nobody would’ve tried anything I suggested. These were people that had very serious physical injuries or curative diseases, people that are in a lot of pain on a daily basis. And if they didn’t see me being so visibly disabled, I don’t know that any of them would been engaged in it. I’ve had a lot of people that I have seen specifically, because coming by reputation or what have you, I have a different perspective so they’re able to have a different level of conversation, whether they’re ready for those conversations or not. I remember somebody coming in and I had asked, what would it take, because they were very stable in a wheelchair and I go what would it take for them to not need counsel anymore? What would that look like? They got so mad at me. They fired me because I insinuated that there could be a point in time where they would not be needing counseling or disabled. Then couple of years later they asked to get back on my caseload. They were like, okay, I don’t want to be like this. They were like, I’m going to be in a wheelchair, but I don’t have to be so unhappy. It’s like, well, you’re right. But it took to be able to put it in the face and say, here is what I have from my experience. And most of them don’t know my story because they don’t need to know, but they see that something’s wrong with me. So I have no issue telling in my head polio. It is just a thing that happens. It came from a random twist of fate and biochemistry. But being able to talk about that and then talk about how that impacts mental health and the importance of you can have happiness, even if you don’t have everything you’ve asked for. You can have joy without being able to run a marathon. [DAWN] Yes, like how do I take of that in the midst of my physical pain and also emotional pain that it’s causing? I’m one of my favorite concepts in therapy, and it’s kind of what you’re saying is in spite of like, how can I still live in spite of how can I still choose joy in spite of, and that’s what I’m hearing you say. And that not only for you, but you’re able to teach that to others in a way that no one else might be able to teach them because they are really going to listen to you because you went through it yourself. [NESSA] That that has been the goal. [DAWN] Yes. I bet it’s been so powerful. I mean, I know clients really appreciate when they can relate on a deeper level to their therapist and feel really understood and see someone who’s gone ahead of them and figured some things out or able to walk alongside them in the midst of a similar struggle. So as we’re talking, I’m just sitting here impacted by your story. First of all, I just am pausing a little bit, because it’s so powerful. Because yes, we meet a lot on video, so I don’t see your brace a lot. And you’re constantly doing tons of activities. So it’s like very hard to tell, but uh, so just sitting here going, wow, there’s so much that I haven’t heard about your story. Was there somebody who influenced you growing up like you’re helping others? [NESSA] I think that is different people at different moments of time. I remember doing youth group when I was growing up at church and going and you’re doing, serving at the rescue mission or going to do habitat for humanity and build houses. And that being part of the normal life of this is what you should started giving a little bit of mindset back then. And then when I actually went away to college, I went to be an international business and Spanish major, just going to travel the world. I was going to do business things. I was going to do something so that I never had to worry if I could pay my bills. It’s like, okay, we’re going to go do this. And then you start going through college and you’re like, no, I’m not this is not what I want to do because I was working for AmeriCorps at the time and just kind of, really realizing, I loved that. I loved working in different spaces their life and the idea of having a connection in growth. So I would say if we’re looking at people that influenced, there was a teacher in high school who was the first one to put it in my head that I could go to college. No one ever suggested it. It was never brought up really in my family. Just kind of do your thing. She was like, you’re going to a four-year college. I’m like, okay, I guess I’ll go to a four-year college. And it’s strange that those things like that of just somebody simply telling you that you can do something makes a humongous difference because we don’t all know that. Something that might be so obvious, like anybody has the opportunity to go to college if they choose, they don’t all know that that’s a possibility [DAWN] Yes, especially if you didn’t grow up with that surrounding you. [NESSA] That you have the ability to leave unhealthy relationship dynamics that you don’t have to repeat destructive patterns, that you can step away from people even if they’re family and be able to move towards people that inspire or grow you. [DAWN] Wow. [NESSA] There was, we were talking about influential people. When I was growing up and going to the church we did, we were fairly poor. So we didn’t have much. So unfortunately being white bred Presbyterian, there are some people who very much looked down on that and you felt it, but there were also other people that were awesome. There was a couple that kind of took us on as adopted grandparents ever since I was a little kid. They’re in their nineties about now and they’re still wonderful, but I think that we needed that external encouragement and confidence of having those few people that you knew weren’t touching you when everybody else was. [DAWN] Yes, just the non-judgment and the encouragement to say, like you said, “Hey, you’re going to go to a four-year college.” Not only did you do that, you went on and got two masters after that. That’s huge. Can you imagine if that teacher never said that or the couple never came alongside you? It’s just, I feel like this is a story of great hope and kindness in the world too, that you’re able to pull from that. And I feel like we need stories like that right now, especially with what’s going on in the world. It just warms my heart to hear your story of how you’ve come out of such hard situations and where you are today. Because I’ve only known you the last few years. So I did not, I’m not knowing all this. So where would you say today, like how do you experience God now today looking back or even just in your present day to day? [NESSA] I think for me more than a set prayer or set time, some places, it’s like God moments where I just feel, right here in the chest where you feel that warmth and connection and you get that sense of there is purpose and direction. And there is something looking out for me. For a lot of times, that’s in nature for me. It’s being on the water, being in the woods, sitting out in my yard and just being present with, I could sit and watch a bird for half an hour and you’re just feeling like there is something that designed all of this and it’s beautiful. I look at this garden that’s a little out of control at the moment, but little God moments. Was walking out to the garage and I’ve got these sunflowers and you have sunflowers. They face the sun. That’s what they’re supposed to do. And I’ve got all these sunflowers facing the sun and I have this one who’s turned around totally completely and he’s faced the garage. And you’re just there, I was just looking at it yesterday and was laughing. I’m like, there’s no reason he should be open in blooms because he’s getting no light because he’s the oppositional defiant sunflower who decided he is not like everybody else. [DAWN] Yes, we people, we diagnose our flowers. [NESSA] But looking at it and then you just kind get caught up with how beautiful it is, how beautiful that its stem is literally, I mean this poor thing. It had tipped over, so it grew across the ground, up and facing away from all light and it’s huge. It was beautiful. Those kinds of moments is where I kind of feel it or that sense of safety, an emotional safety in a situation, whether it is being at home or being with other people that you like or don’t like and feeling like you don’t, you’re not doing it yourself. [DAWN] Yes. So going back to this sunflower, what do you think God was saying to you through that sunflower? Such a powerful metaphor. [NESSA] You don’t have to be like everybody else. I absolutely am the type of person who likes to blend into the background and I am not comfortable with being the forefront of attention. So I am the sunflower who’s hiding, doing exactly what I’m supposed to be doing, don’t want to have disruption and it’s just like, nope, that’s not the way this is going to work. [DAWN] Yes. It’s like he said, I created you for more. You can face whatever way, but you’re still a beautiful sunflower. I love that. And I love that you connect with nature. That’s one of my major things too. That’s where I experience God a lot, just outside. And I know I’ve seen a lot of your pictures, kayaking and being on the water. Definitely I can see that experiencing God there for you. [NESSA] I remember about a month or two ago, just going outside and up to Western Pennsylvania, there was this great horn to owl. So he was like 18 inches, big sitting, just sitting in my yard, not in a tree, he’s just chilling in my yard. He was just looking at me. He let me go get the house, get the camera, come back outside. He was just like doing, I’ve never seen a now before really. I saw one. Ever before that it was the week before. And it was just like those signs, an image of something that reminds me very much of my grandmother who just passed this last year right about the same time. It’s those moments of reminders of the people that you love or still have purpose are still with you. They’re still hanging out. [DAWN] Wow. I love that. And owl just chilling in the yard. [DAWN] On the ground. [DAWN] Unusual. I know. [NESSA] Big, huge. [DAWN] Yes. And I like that, looking for God everywhere, looking for Him in places, like where is He speaking to you softly? Where is He showing up in places you don’t know? I love that. I just love trying to experience God and just being open to that, experiencing Him and different than going to church or doing all the, I’m using air quotes, people can’t see it but you can, doing all the right things. God is so much bigger than that and just experiencing Him. And what is He saying? What is the invitation in that owl, in that flower? So thank you for sharing that. So anything in closing, we’re kind of getting to end of our time, in closing anything you want to share with people about your faith journey and using struggle to connect with God? Anything else in closing that you can think of? [NESSA] I guess for me, the most important thing I would say along that element is you don’t have to know why something’s happening. We want answers. If I’m going through a situation, A, B, C, I want a litany of reasons of why. That, because there are some very hard things that happen in life, there’s some very difficult things, there are losses that are absolutely traumatizing and to very, very good people, to people that you care a lot about. And there’s all these questions of why. Know why that you’re given. Is ever going to make that okay. So being able to say, I want to know exactly why this happens. It’s not going to ever measure up because it’s not on your scale. One pebble and a pond causes a ripple all the way across the edge. And for me, I’ve had a lot of reflective thought about, on how some of those ripples have occurred and how certain things happened and how they may have had a bigger effect on something else down the line. I was supposed to be a ripple in somebody else’s role, something happened to me so that I could share with somebody else, but to be able to have acceptance of not knowing. And I think that’s one of the most important, but most difficult things of, if you hold out all your energy, I just want to know why you’re going to miss the rest of the journey. [DAWN] That’s so profound. I love what you said that even what, why, even if you did know a why would it make it okay that this happened? No. That’s such a profound thing to accept and to sit with and say oh, maybe that’s the wrong goal of trying to find out why or get answers. What if the goal is the journey and bigger than just this why? And even if I found out, that’s not going to satisfy me. I love that. It’s just so real of being, allowing people to be in the moment with their questions, their pain, but also know their, for me, I believe when we do have a deeper faith and connect to God, I do feel like that helps us get purpose, helps us ground ourselves in the midst of, and in spite of the circumstances that are happening. It makes life makes sense to me more. Otherwise life doesn’t make sense. [NESSA] And it allows you to hand off some of that pain and to trust God and becomes a thing. And it’s like, okay, I don’t like this. I’m not okay with it. I would like you to change it, but I’m also going to let you help me take some of the weight of this and not just carry through it out of sheer stubbornness or frustration. [DAWN] Yes. I love that you said that. It reminds me of radical acceptance. One of our, I’m going to share with our listeners, one of the concepts we use in counseling for DBT or anything is radical acceptance. So kind of, it’s like, I want you guys to put your hands open with the palms facing up and say, “I don’t like this. I didn’t ask for this. I don’t want this.” But then kind of putting your hands on your heart and saying, “But I accept this.” It’s such a huge difference than saying, no, I refuse to accept this. Like, life goes differently when we just are honest. I don’t like this. I didn’t want this and I accept it, like all together. That’s called radical acceptance. That’s what I heard you say. [NESSA] It was. [DAWN] So Nessa, since we both love the outdoors and I usually ask this question, well, not usually I try to ask this question with my guest, what is one of your transformational trail moments? Do you have some that you could share? [NESSA] All right. I put some thought into this one ahead of time, because as I’m listening to your podcast, you’re asking people over and over again. Despite the fact that I’m obviously not very good at walking or hiking, I really enjoy doing it. I like getting out there, like further away from people the better. And there are some pretty cool paths and trails that I have taken. Thinking back, I think the most transformational one was actually, I had gone to the grand canyon. A couple years ago, had filed for divorce, got on a plane, went to out to Las Vegas with a friend and was like, okay, we had it already planned ahead of time. We were going to get out. It’s like I left something that was very unhealthy, filed some formal stuff, went out there and then she went one direction. I went another, I went on a bus trip on myself to block the grand canyon. As I’m walking it obviously I was in awe of how humongous it is. It just profound. If a person hasn’t seen it, you really can’t understand the magnitude of what you’re looking at. But as we’re walking along the rim and there’s a tour guide, because there always, is just talking and talking and talking and she’s pointing out these streets. There’s all of these, withered looking trees and kind of strange shapes and stuff along the path. She was telling us how old they were there. Some of them are 300 years old, 600 years old. I mean, we have these old trees that look like they’re half alive. What I was amazed off as I’m walking and pondering and doing all of that is they survived completely based on their willingness to be adaptable. They completely change themselves. They prevent excessive growth. They don’t try to go from here to become the biggest vines. Because these trees, some of them are maybe 20 feet, if they’re lucky. They’re not big. They have limbs that have fallen off. They have roots that are growing up and above and then down into the cracks. She was saying that because the conditions are so harsh up there that they’re constantly having to adapt. If they are having a very wet seasons, they’ll do a little bit more growing, but soon as it starts going dry, they’ll sever their own limbs. They’ll stop sending water to certain parts of its body in order to keep the overall tree whole. And I just remember doing a lot of just thinking about that. It’s like having to make choices of what’s healthy and unhealthy for you. What are areas that are safe and great to grown in and what are areas that you have to suffer so that die. I think that’s the biggest thing I had taken from that just whole trail besides the fact that it was beautiful and pictures and all of that. It’s just those trees. They really, really stuck with me and mostly because I was making like such a life changing experience at that time. It’s like, okay, I severed what wasn’t healthy so that I could grow towards what was. [DAWN] Wow. That is huge. I love that analogy. Do you have a picture of those trees? I feel like it should be in your home, in your office or something. That’s a huge thing. [NESSA] Here’s the thing. I can’t remember what the trees are called. I got pictures of the trees, I’ve got ’em on my phone. I need to Google “what are these trees?” Because I think that’s just such an interesting lesson for everybody of being able to balance between that. [DAWN] And I feel like, actually it’s funny, I feel like that is a good picture of your faith story too, of this tree of learning to adapt no matter what the circumstance and still grow and still be in beauty and still be part of the grand canyon. I feel like you are the tree. I just feel like it was a very good picture of your story. [NESSA] And it was when I needed to see it. I mean, that’s one of those moments, that putting something in your path to help you be okay with what isn’t easy. [DAWN] What a powerful, powerful word, not even just a word picture, what a powerful memory, but you can bring that tree up. I love it. I have to see, you have to send me a picture of the tree. Well, thank you so much Nessa for sharing that. And I love the grand canyon. That’s been one of my most transformational trails too, so that’s really cool. Thank you so much. [NESSA] All right, thanks. [DAWN] Thank you for listening today at Faith Fringes Podcast. If you want to explore more of your own faith journey, I offer my free eight-week email course called Spiritual Reflections, where you take a deeper dive into your own story included as a journaling workbook that has guided exercises. So if you want to explore more of what you were brought up to believe, or even look at where you may have been disillusioned or hurt, but yet still deep down you desire to authentically connect with God, then this course is for you. Just go to faithfringes.com to sign up. Also, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email and tell me what’s on your mind. You can reach me at dawn@faithfringes.com. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.