GORDON BREWER ON SPIRITUAL FORMATION | EP 36

[DAWN GABRIEL] Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, host of Faith Fringes Podcast, recording live from Castle Rock Colorado, not only where I love to live, but I also work as the owner of a counseling center in the historic downtown. This podcast is a place to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. For those desiring deeper connection with God and engaging their spirituality in new ways, this will be a safe place to allow doubt, questions and curiosity, without judgment. We will be creating intentional space to listen in on other’s faith journeys, whether that is deconstruction or reconstruction, with the hope of traveling alongside you on your own spiritual path. If you’re interested in getting even more out of this podcast, grab my free email course Spiritual Reflections on my websitefaithfringes.com. Welcome to the podcast. Hello, welcome back. This is episode 36 brought to you by Dawn Gabriel, your host of Faith Fringes podcast. Today I hope you guys are having a good week. I hope you are able to slow down in the busyness of all the holidays. I know for me from October on, I feel like right before Halloween, maybe fall break starts the mad dash through the rest of the year for all the holiday craziness, but I really hope you’re able to slow down and really pick what you value and really lean into some of the fun traditions and the fun memories to make with your family this Christmas season coming up. For me, one of our favorite things is we like to take a trip on, well, my kids are still little remember, and we like to take a trip on the Santa Polar Express. It’s down in Royal Gorge and we actually, it’s like a dinner and we ride the train and we pick up Santa at the north pole and we have hot chocolate with him and his elves. It’s so fun. So I think this might be the last year we get to do you that with our kiddos based on their ages and beliefs. So I just encourage you to make time for the things you really want to and say no to the things that don’t speak life into you during this season. Speaking of that, today, my guest that I’ll be interviewing is Gordon Brewer. He is a therapist, a podcaster, a trainer, a speaker, and a writer. And besides all that, he’s a licensed marriage and family therapist and an AAMFT approved supervisor. Gordon is the person behind the Practice of Therapy podcast and blog and that podcast and blog provide information and resources for clinicians starting, growing or scaling private practices. Gordon has worked in the human services and mental health fields for over 30 years. He has previously worked in agency settings and currently in private practice as a therapist. He owns a group therapy practice called Kingsport Counseling Associates, and that’s located in Kingsport, Tennessee and he also has served as an adjunct instructor and internship supervisor at East Tennessee State University. Gordon is married to Mary-Sister brewer, and they have one daughter, Rebecca, who is an environmental educator. Gordon is also a clergy person in the Episcopal church, which is a vocational deacon. So we are going to hear from him and he has a wealth of knowledge, and I just met him through a mutual friend and it felt like I had known him for a long time. I’m so excited to interview him and we talk about just spiritual formation, like what we can do to help dive into our more spiritual lives. I just really enjoy it and I hope you will too. [DAWN] Well, welcome Gordon to the podcast. [GORDON BREWER] Well, thank you, Dawn. I’ve really been looking forward to this. [DAWN] So for my listeners, they might not know, like we have been in the same circles a lot, but we have never officially met until right before and we’ve been talking and I’m so excited for them to hear kind of your background. If you could just take a moment and share kind of yes, a little bit about yourself and what you do. [GORDON] Thanks. Well, thanks, again for having me. I’m Gordon brewer and I’m a marriage and family therapist and I have a group practice in Kingsport, Tennessee. Kingsport is in the Northeast corner of Tennessee right where Tennessee and Virginia and Kentucky kind of all come together up there. But I’ve been in private practice since about 2005, 2006 and when I first started my practice, I started it really in the context of a church ministry as much as anything, and then had some diversions along the way and just went off and started my group practice and really in 2014. But I was in solo practice prior to that. In addition to my work as a therapist, I also wear another hat where I’m a clergy person in the Episcopal church. So folks who might not be familiar with the Episcopal church, The Episcopal church is what, the short way I like to describe it is what became of the Church of England in the United States, after the revolution. So it’s Anglican and we are very much grounded in the Anglican tradition and that sort of thing. I’m a deacon in the Episcopal church, which is considered clergy in the Episcopal church and my ministry is, I like to think of it as it really in the world, even though I am assigned to a parish where I’m there on Sundays and sometimes do some preaching and all of that sort of thing. My ministry is really my practice and that is really kind of how I’ve landed where I’ve landed. I didn’t grow up in the Episcopal church, but grew up as a Baptist, Southern Baptist. And just to clarify, my dad was a Baptist pastor and he was really a much more moderate kind of version of Baptist than what we see today. But anyway, that was my, kind of grew up around church and faith and spiritual things. My practice today does involve a good bit of doing, kind of impromptu spiritual direction with folks. But that’s really, as I like, as I was telling you, Dawn, before we started, I literally like to consider my practice more faith and form rather than faith based. I tell my clients all the time a clergy person, and I’ve got that background but I’m not going to beat you over the head with a Bible. I’m not going to talk about faith, unless those are things that you want to talk about or those things are important to you. Then I just love talking about those things and have a lot of fun with it if those are things you want to talk about. So anyway, I don’t have a religious agenda with my practice. [DAWN] I love that. And how do you find clients respond when you say we can bring that in, but we don’t have to? How do they respond to you? [GORDON] It’s funny, where we live here, kind of the demographics of our area, I like to refer to it as kind of the buckle of the Bible belt. It’s very much different kind of faith backgrounds than I would have, but for the most part, people are very welcoming of that, but don’t run into too much pushback here. But there are people that are very upfront with me and say, “Well, I’m an atheist or don’t go to church,” or any of that sort of thing. I say, “That’s cool.” We just go with that. [DAWN] I grew up, I don’t know if some of my background, my listeners might, if they’ve listened for a while, but I grew up more conservative, evangelical. And part of my story is just kind of coming out of that in more developing, more spiritual formation on experiential level with God, instead of a head knowledge. Even though I have a degree in theology, I have found sitting with people in hurt and brokenness as we do with therapy, it’s opened my eyes up to how people experience God and what they think about the church. So I’m curious as you are in the Bible belt, which I grew up there, I grew up in the Midwest, similar Bible belt, but not the buckle, but I’m curious as like, what have you seen when people are kind of diving in to their pain, they’re hurt? Do they still hold to their faith or do they go through questioning? I’m just curious about that. [GORDON] That’s a great question because I think a lot of different people think about it in a lot of different ways, but one thing that I would say that I hear from people is that they don’t feel that they are worthy of receiving, to put it in religious terms, the grace of God. I mean, it’s something like, they feel like they’re not good enough to go to church and all of that sort of thing. So that’s one thing that comes up and I’ve just really kind of challenge them with that, of just being able to say, well, what do you see in your faith tradition, particularly as Christians was the purpose of Jesus dying on the cross? I mean, what was that about for you? So I really kind of pose it to them in that way of just really hopefully, maybe thinking about it in terms of, okay, you’re forgiven and there’s grace from God. That really, kind of that piece that passes all understanding, you can forget from that. The other thing two is just questioning things like, a big one is like evolution. That’s one that comes up but people think, well, no, God, what the Bible says is how it is. That’s what I believe and that sort of thing. So I really take kind of a curious approach with people about that of really just being able to say okay, well, how did you come to believe what you believe and also getting to some of the fear underneath that for them, Because I think a lot of times in people, with their belief is that they have got this kind of idea of God as being, God’s going to get you if you think, or believe in a certain way, and you’re going to be punished for that. Unfortunately, you do see a lot of times where people have really kind of endured some spiritual abuse through their church experiences. So getting around that, of being able to, like you said, of really kind of allowing yourself to doubt and allowing yourself to question and really kind of come into that. So I really see my job as a therapist and even in my ministry is just a, I’m a big one for the ministry of presence of just being able to be present with people in a nonjudgmental way and helping them kind of get past the shame that they’re dealing with internally. So it’s a journey. It’s just really kind of walking with them through that and giving them permission to ask the hard questions. [DAWN] I love that. I love that you’re also a clergyman too, because I think a lot of times from my experience or what I’ve heard, sometimes pastors or clergymen feel like they have to have like this perfect biblical answer when in reality, I think it is more about what you said, journeying alongside someone without that shame and judgment is so powerful.. To me, I feel like that’s showing Jesus to people on earth. It’s like we get to show His love. It warms my heart to hear that you’re also in the clergy and have that mindset. There have been some pastors in my life that yes, I’ve been hurt by, but in recent years that have really helped redeem that hurt. They have similar stances as you. So it’s good to hear that. [GORDON] Yes. And the thing about it is that I think, too, not to get, well, this is relevant, one of the things about when it comes to your faith and using your faith in your practice, the only thing that I’ve got to draw on with that is my own experience of it. So being able to share my experience of things with people to experiencing when I felt God’s presence and also sharing within those times when I didn’t feel God’s presence. Of being able to, to acknowledge that and just being able to say life is tough and I don’t personally have a, there’s kind of two kind of theologies that you wrestle with sometimes, is that God being this all powerful kind of puppet master that orchestrates everything that happens on earth versus kind of God is the benevolent clock maker that put everything in motion. So finding the balance between kind of those two theologies of understanding that and making meaning out of things, that’s another thing too. And listening to your podcast earlier today, I was reminded of a quote that I like to paraphrase from Victor Frankel. Victor Frankel’s the author of Man Search for Meaning. He was a, for the people that aren’t familiar with him, he was a contemporary Sigman and Carl Young and so he essentially, Victor Frankel said if we don’t have meaning in our life, we will substitute pleasure for that. And pleasure is nearly, always empty. Not that we can’t have pleasure in life and do things that are pleasurable, but really the substance of life comes from things that give us meaning and gives us purpose in life. So I see my job as a therapist and as a clergy person to help people kind of find that for themselves through the paths that they take. [DAWN] I feel like that goes right into what we were talking about earlier with soul care. It’s like looking holistically at the person including a spiritual element of what is meaning? What is purpose here? Whether it’s pain or joy or pleasure or doubt, let’s dive in. So what have you seen in your experience? How would you define soul care? And let’s just kind of jump into that topic? [GORDON] I love that question and I’m still kind of figuring out soul care. [DAWN] Me too. [GORDON] I mean, that’s, and I think it’s going to be a lifelong pursuit, but one of the things is just being able to share your internal world with caring and loving people that are safe to share it with. I know Dawn, this resonates for you. I mean, the greatest thing I’ve ever done for myself is get a spiritual director who also happens to be a therapist. So I’ve got a double I think that’s a good fit for me. Howard is just, he’s a retired Episcopal priest. So he is got a lot of wisdom in that front, but also he has a background in psychology and was a psychologist and worked in the clinical setting as well. So he understands in ways that, I need a person like that, that could be reflective in that way. I think as much as anything soul care means being able to embrace kind of the toughness of life and those things that come along that are painful and to be able to sit with that and also know that you’re not alone in that. And I think being able to seek out people and things and practices and rituals and that sort of thing, that kind of feed that, that bring that meaning to you. All of this stuff is really hard to put into words. [DAWN] So true. I’ve been finding that as I’m trying to do that. [GORDON] Yes, and religion attempts at that and real religion is the way I think about it as a light, is just simply a language for putting those things into words, because it’s a universal experience for a lot of people and that we have this sense of there’s being something greater than ourselves that we are connected to and attached to. So it’s being able to acknowledge that. Then the other thing too, is just thinking about what we’re called to in the moment. We have a lot of, kind of weird vernacular and things that we say as Christians and just in that whole realm like what is your call and what is God’s will, and what you believe and all of those kinds of things. In my own journey, I would say I don’t put so much stock in belief anymore because that kind of, as I like to say, that kind of gets me into Santa Claus land in that I’ve to believe something in order to experience God. Now, I think there are some beliefs that I have and maybe some convictions that I have, but I think as much as anything it’s about being able to seek a path of following Jesus in the Christian sense or following Muhammad or following Buddha or whatever fits for you, of being able to follow that path. And that is a way of life, more than it is about belief. So setting up my life in such a way that I’m able to follow the example that Christ said and how I interact with myself, but also interact with others. So it’s about being able to share kindness and compassion for ourselves and for others. [DAWN] Wow. I feel like there was so much there. I’m trying to yes, I’m what I’m sitting with is I felt like, yes, I just did an episode on what is soul care, but this, I feel like you took it a little deeper and I love it. So what I am pulling out from what you said is there’s this deeper level of a meaning and purpose that is larger than ourselves. It’s connected, for Christian faith it’s connected to Jesus and God, but if you have another faith, that’s still connected to something spiritual outside of you that’s bigger and it’s more grounding. And not only that, but then you make a way forward to follow that path through, whether it’s rituals or practices. I love that. I feel like you helped me define it even more and you broadened it to other faiths, which I love, other faith journeys. But it’s definitely something outside of yourself, which also helps our compassion with others and compassion with ourselves and yes, I’m going to have to sit with that for a while. [GORDON] Yes. Early on and just kind of my own journey, my own faith journey is I grew up in, my whole family’s life was around church and the social activities of that. With my dad being the pastor, we were there every time, the church doors were open and just thoroughly ingrained in that. But I reached a point early in my adulthood where I was really kind of hurt by the church. There was a lot of shame of about my role in the church and that I should be this or should be that. So I really kind of got to a place where I just didn’t want anything to do with church, just kind of like I’m done with this. I’m going to do something else. It was at that point in my life that I discovered Joseph Campbell. For folks not familiar with Joseph Campbell, if you’re on any sort of spiritual journey, I would say learn about Joseph Campbell. But one of his quotes that I love is just simply to follow your bliss. Again, I’m paraphrasing his quote, but when you follow your bliss, the world would begin to open up to you in ways that you never saw imaginable and that you’re following your purpose is another way of putting it. But following your bliss is really to immerse yourself in those things that just bring you joy, bring you meaning. You that you’ve had it when you find something that you’re doing and you kind of lose all sense of space and time and that you just can immerse yourself in that. That is your bliss. And I think when we get to that point too, it just opens up, to put it in kind of Christian terms that kind of opens you up to God’s will for us in our lives, I think. [DAWN] Wow. That’s so different. Sometimes I remember growing up thinking I have to be a missionary in Africa and give up all these things to be truly Christian or truly following God, like kind of an opposite approach is what you’re saying; is sometimes no, God designed joy too. What brings joy, follow that is what you said, Joseph Campbell says. Follow it. That can also lead to purpose. [GORDON] Yes. [GORDON] Wow. I love that. I’m wondering, when you’re talking about practices or spiritual practices or rhythms, can you maybe talk more about that? What are some of your ideas that you’ve done that help you facilitate this soul care for yourself? [GORDON] Well, so it is interesting after listening to one of your previous episodes, Dawn, I think you were right on the mark when you were talking about kind of practices around that. I think one thing is having a community of people that you can be authentic with and that you could be vulnerable with and that sort of thing. That may or may not be within the church setting. I think having some sort of daily spiritual practice or some sort of discipline is helpful. For me, it’s just in the form of, it’s a pretty simple thing. I go on walks in the morning early and I have a podcast that I’ll listen to called Pray As You Go. It’s a kind of a Lectio Divina kind of practice where it’s actually put out by a Jesuit society in England. Wherever you get your podcast, you can probably find it. Pray As You Go. So there’s a short scripture reading and then a reflection, and then they repeat the scripture reading and then you reflect again. It’s about 12 to 15 minute podcast episode every day, based on the lectionary for that season. So that is, some days I’m really tuned into it. Other days it’s just in the background. But I think what is important is just to kind of keep up with the discipline and the rhythm of doing that. So that’s one of my spiritual practices, going on retreat and getting time away, taking time off. Yes, I know one, one thing that we both have in common is hiking and I love to be able to go out. Where I live, I’m fortunate and I’m only about 30 minutes away from the Appalachian trail. So it’s real easy for where I live to get out just totally detached from the urban world and just the cars and noise and all of that sort of thing. I think that’s just a very grounding thing of being able to get in the present and stay in the present in those kinds of surroundings. So that keeps me grounded. The other thing too, is something that I’ve really been in my own, just kind of disclosure, working on in my own spiritual direction and just talking with a spiritual director about this. I’ve shared with folks before, but I shared it with Dawn that my wife is disabled and she’s a breast cancer survivor. She’s also had a brain tumor and just been through this really debilitating health journey. She’s now wheelchair bound and requires round the clock care in terms of we have caregivers that are coming in and stay with her during the day and if I’m gone, I have to have people come in and stay with her. But really wrestling with, okay. one thing being angry at God, why are you letting this happen? Why are you letting this happen to her? Why are yo letting this happen to me? Dealing with the resentments around this is, it’s kind of I haven’t signed up for this kind of kind of thing, even though you make your vows better for worse and all of that. But my point with all of this is really trying to figure out what is it that God is calling me to in this moment and in this thing that I’m faced with in my own life? And being able to sit with that and being able to accept that, and also being able to find the joy in that to some degree, of being able to find meaning in that, and that this is what I’m called to in this moment. So I don’t know all the answers to that maybe but someday I will, but that’s part of the journey. [DAWN] The thing that struck me as you were talking about your wife and just soul care is that some of your practices have allowed you the process of just slowing down and noticing and being curious. At the same time, that didn’t mean you’re not angry. Like I love that you just have the freedom to be angry at times, but then there’s like this deeper calling to you saying, yes, I’m angry. I’m confused. I’m hurt. I’m probably grieving too. But also where is God in the midst of this? I just found like very drawn in when you were saying that, like a very realistic way, in a beautiful way of just sitting with all of the fields that go with that. I mean, I’m sure, I don’t know how long you’ve been married, but it didn’t start out that way and i’s a very different relationship now. [GORDON] We’ve been, well, it’s January. We will have been married 27 years now. [DAWN] Wow, and how long has she been struggling with breast cancer? [GORDON] Yes, so she’s been, her first cancer diagnosis was in 2010. So it’s just been an up and down kind of thing there, but it’s, yes, so finding meaning and purpose in all of that, I think has been been, yes, it’s a struggle. I think too, just in thinking about doing therapy and doing this with other therapists is, one of the things that I think is real important to our clients that I think a lot of times we get the wrong lessons in this, in graduate school. But I think a bit of self disclosure goes a long way with building credibility with our clients and being able to say to them, yes, I’ve struggled with this too. This has been a tough thing for me and what I go through in life as well. So I get it what you’re struggling with and I understand that. [DAWN] Yes, just giving them the permission to also feel that, feeling like, oh, he’s a therapist and he still struggles? Then it’s okay for me to struggle. [GORDON] Yes, and embracing the struggle too. I think it’s being able to look at kind of the highs and lows as being part of the greater thing and that one without the other, wouldn’t be of the whole. [DAWN] Right. Yes, and I feel like that is one of the things in looking at the Christian faith of Jesus. Like he knew his time on earth was going to be struggle, but for the greater good. He did embrace it, but he was, yes, I just feel like looking at him and realizing he wasn’t immune to struggle and just being with, he needed community too. I mean, just, it was Jesus we’re talking about. So allowing us to just be in that struggle, but still knowing there might be a deeper purpose, even if I’m mad at that. Like for me, I always go to anger. I’m like, I’m mad. I don’t care what the purpose is. I don’t want this right now. But there is a deeper longing within me and that’s what I’m hearing you say too. Like, it’s both the end. It’s not one or the other. [GORDON] Right. Yes, and I think it’s just being able to, again, kind of repeating myself is the more I can remind myself to kind of stay in the present it seems to make it a little easier. [DAWN] That is one thing I noticed when you were talking about your spiritual practices and as I’ve dove into looking at what soul care is and some spiritual formation stuff, a lot of it is a slowing down and being mindful, like a mindfulness practice. And you don’t have to have the Christian faith to do that. Anyone can do it, but there is something about this slowing life pace down and getting curious and being in the moment that is huge. It is. I see that in my therapy practice too, and getting trained in certain things like this stuff really does work, but when you add a spiritual element, I feel like there’s a deeper purpose level. [GORDON] Yes. It’s just a matter of slowing down and noticing things, noticing what’s right in front of us. [DAWN] Yes, and I think that also goes back to what we were saying about, we both love hiking. It’s like an automatic. It does that for you, if you turn your phone off and can be in the nature, does that to me almost instantaneously when I’m on a hike. [GORDON] Another metaphor, I was the thinking about this morning with that, particularly if anybody’s ever done any backpacking in the mountains of just how physically hard it is. And I was thinking about the times when I’ve been, or maybe a fairly long hike. Sometimes we’ll hike 10 or 12 miles in a day, which is a long hike. I mean, it’s probably too much than is wise for me, but part of it is as the day goes on, you get tireder and it’s like you have to really push yourself to move forward. It might be that you’d walk maybe a hundred yards up the steep embankment and you have to stop and rest, but then you also know that to go back is not going to help you and you really need to keep going forward, even if it’s just a few feet at a time. So I think when we get overwhelmed in life to remember that kind of concept is you just keep moving and when it’s time to rest, you rest, you center yourself again and then you keep moving even if it’s at a slow pace. [DAWN] I love that. It’s so true that. Hiking has taught me that more than anything. I used to be a runner when I was younger and I would run races. It’s like, yes, I can do anything for 30 seconds. I could do anything till that tree. Same with hiking. Like there’s no way to go back. This is the path I’m on. I love that. Well, I know we’re getting to the end of our time. I just was wondering if there’s anything in closing that is coming up as we talk about soul care or spiritual formation or anything at all you can think of that you’d want to still say to my listeners. [GORDON] Well, I think as much as anything we need to remind ourselves, particularly those of us that are therapists to be able to take the time to recharge your batteries as I like to call it, of being able to, as you said slowing down, of being able to give ourselves permission to unplug from it all and just sit and just take that rest. The whole concept of a Sabbath comes up as well in my mind, and that we need to take that Sabbath time and that rest time in order for us to take care of ourselves. Because if we’re not taking care of ourselves, we are not going to have the capacity to help anyone else. [DAWN] I’m reading a book by John Mark Comer called The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry and he is talking about that and talking about the Sabbath. It’s like fascinating. It’s really cool. [GORDON] Right. [DAWN] Well, Gordon, if somebody wants to get ahold of you or listen to your podcast, can you give us some of those details? [GORDON] Yes, absolutely. You’ll just go to practiceoftherapy.com, all of my stuff is there. You can find me on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn and all of those social media places. You can also email me at gordon@practiceoftherapy.com. [DAWN] All right. Well, thank you so much. I’ve so much enjoyed our time today. It’s given me things to think about as well. So I really appreciate it. [GORDON] Oh, thanks, Dawn. It’s my pleasure being here. [DAWN] Thank you for listening today at Faith Fringes Podcast. If you want to explore more of your own faith journey, I offer my free eight-week email course called Spiritual Reflections, where you take a deeper dive into your own story included as a journaling workbook that has guided exercises. So if you want to explore more of what you were brought up to believe, or even look at where you may have been disillusioned or hurt, but yet still deep down you desire to authentically connect with God, then this course is for you. Just go to faithfringes.com to sign up. Also, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email and tell me what’s on your mind. You can reach me at dawn@faithfringes.com. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.