[DAWN GABRIEL]:
Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, your host of Faith Fringes podcast. Recording live from Castle Rock, Colorado. I am a licensed professional counselor, owner of a counseling center and a sacred space holder for fellow therapists. This podcast is for those who want to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. I create intentional space to explore your own spiritual path, a space that allows doubt questions and curiosity without the judgment or shame; a place to hear another story and dive deeper into how to have a genuine connection with God.
New Speaker:
For my fellow therapists listening, I will often pull back the curtain of our layered inner world that comes with our profession. I bring an authentic and experienced way to engage your spiritual journey in order to connect you with your deepest values for true renewal and soul care. But really this podcast is for anyone listening who’s desiring a deeper and genuine connection with God. For those of you wanting to engage your spirituality in new ways, Faith Fringes is for you. Welcome to the podcast.
New Speaker:
Hello. Welcome back to Faith Fringes podcast. This is Dawn Gabriel. I am at excited to be back and talking to you. I’ve missed you the last few months that I took a break, but today I have a special guest I want to introduce to you. I actually met Carrie about a year ago and the minute I met her and we started talking, I could tell we were, had some similar passions about groups and I just really connected with her.
New Speaker:
Let me tell you a little bit about Carrie. Carrie Haynes is a licensed professional counselor and the creator of the Art of Groups podcast and the Facebook community, The Art of Groups. She has spent her career specializing in group work and is passionate about supporting therapists and healers in facilitating transformative group work. I just want to say that when you guys hear Carrie, you can tell how excited she gets about groups and today we are going to talk about how being in a group can actually be spiritual. It intersects a lot with spirituality and just how we do life as humanity and as humans.
New Speaker:
It’s really neat to listen in. I’m especially excited because as you all know, I have been launching soul care retreats specifically for therapists, but I’ve just been really learning a lot more about groups and how, I get really passionate about it too, and how there is a spiritual element, a sacred element. We talk about it in here. So listen in as we get to know Carrie more and hear her perspective on how group work intersects with spirituality. Welcome to the podcast, Carrie.
[CARRIE HAYNES]:
Thank you. I’m so happy to be here. Excited.
[DAWN]:
I am too. We’ve been, we had to postpone this a couple times based on our schedules, but it’s finally happening.
[CARRIE]:
We’re here.
[DAWN]:
So why don’t you start by telling my listeners a little bit about you and what you do?
[CARRIE]:
All right. So I am a licensed professional counselor and I have been specializing in group work for my whole career. So I always joke that I grew up in a big family. I’m one of five. So I felt like I was doing group therapy right out of the gate. I was always the little helper and tuning into everyone’s emotions and managing the family and then turned it into a profession. So I feel like I got to a point where I was like, well, I might as well get paid to do what I’ve been doing in my family of origin my whole life.
[DAWN]:
Wow, I’m one of five also.
[CARRIE]:
What number are you?
[DAWN]:
I’m the first.
[CARRIE]:
Okay.
[DAWN]:
What number are you?
[CARRIE]:
Two. I’m an older sister. So, well then you probably can relate to growing up. It’s like group all the time. We were all very close together. My parents had us quickly and so I feel like that is a community and a group that I still lean into regularly. There’s still all the shadow side of group stuff like. We love well, we fight well, the connection, disconnection, but I learned so much about being in relationship and being in group through my family. Then when I went to graduate school, I actually took part in a group and that was an eye-opening experience. Then just got to learn about group work from an amazing woman, her name’s Danielle Oakley.
New Speaker:
I took a group course with her that was about yalam and the here and now interpersonal process. I really felt like I came home there because there was something to me that was so magical about really talking about what was happening between us in the room, what our reactions were to one another and I felt like there was an intimacy and a depth that I always longed for, but didn’t often get. So that really, really ignited my fire for what is possible in a group and I went on from there to specialize in group work. I worked at a university for 10 years and, a little over 10 years and then went into private practice. Do you want me to keep going and telling you about where I am now? I know that that’s a lot.
[DAWN]:
Oh, no, that’s okay. So when you went into private practice, did you do mainly group work or were you doing individual as well?
[CARRIE]:
When I was at the university, I was the director of the group program there. I did a lot of supervising, training teaching, and then facilitating groups. I would facilitate at least six groups a year. When I went into private practice, I was only doing individual work and one, well, two process groups of my own, but it was a really different feeling being out in the community than it was being at the university, because the environment that I was in at the university was super pro group. Everybody loved group work. We would run over 20 group a semester and we would fill them and everyone just believed in group work.
New Speaker:
It was so different because what I realized in the community is that I could fill my groups, but a lot of my colleagues were having trouble. So I just, I wasn’t as immersed in the group work when I went into private practice and I started to see that other colleagues and people wanted to run groups. They were interested in group work, but they couldn’t get them going and I decided that I wanted to help people figure out how to do that because I had had such a good model and such a good experience at the university. That’s how I started. I created the podcast, the Art of Groups podcast and community, and have been doing more training and teaching to help people learn what I learned just to get the foundations around group work. So over time in private practice, my practice has transitioned and starting in January, I will be 95% groups. Maybe there’s, I do some individual, but mostly I’m doing training, consulting and facilitating groups.
[DAWN]:
I love that. You also facilitate consulting and how other people can lead groups. Like that’s one of your big passions now, is training other therapists to get excited around the culture of groups.
[CARRIE]:
Exactly. I’ve been working with a few group practices and that’s fun because there’s just a way that they can all support each other in a group practice. So I’ve seen a lot of group practices really transform their culture around groups, which leads to a real thriving group culture. That’s been great. Then I’m also some work with some individual therapists, as well as guides or circle facilitators who are doing more non-clinical groups and training and supporting them and starting circles or other types of groups in the community.
[DAWN]:
I love that. I know because we have talked on other occasions that you’re are just not only passionate about groups, therapy groups, but there’s something deeper that happens and not just therapy, but there’s something like sacred and spiritual that takes place when you are holding space for one another in a group format. I would love to just dive into that. So even just as a broad opening, what do you think when I say that?
[CARRIE]:
Well, I was thinking about this a little bit before the podcast and for me groups and spirituality are synonymous. There’s no separation. I don’t really think that any group is non-spiritual in some way, because I really believe that group work is about connection. It’s about connecting to yourself in a really deep way and it’s about connecting to others. For me that’s one of the most spiritual experiences we can have as human beings is to feel seen, to feel held, to feel known. To do that for ourselves when we have to take the time to really like that intrapersonal process, where we listen deeply to our own heart, our own soul, our own spirit, and I feel like group really provides the container to do that and be witnessed by others. Then also the experience to really do that and feel connected and feel our interconnection that really, we are more similar than different —
[DAWN]:
I love that.
[CARRIE]:
I felt like there are moments that happen in a group that really just can’t happen anywhere else, where we feel like our connection and our divinity. So I feel like groups are just inherently spiritual.
[DAWN]:
Wow. I love that. When you said that groups and spirituality are synonymous, I’ll have to sit with that. I believe that, but I’ve never put it into words like that. I’ve seen it powerful. I’ve seen some bad groups though and some good groups. What’s the difference between just like two people like a friend and a friend or a partner and a partner versus this group work? Why is it more spiritually you think?
[CARRIE]:
I don’t know if I think it’s more. I think a spiritual experience can also be with one individual and I think it is the way that the group is held really. Like I feel like there’s an intentionality in the way that we come into a group environment or the way that I hope people come into a group environment that it feels like sacred space. Like we’re coming in to do work on ourselves, to know ourselves better, to know each other better and there’s a sacredness just to that process. So I don’t think that that can happen in every group environment. So maybe the real defining feature is the intention at which the group is coming together. So I think that that can be true in a couple or with a friend, depending on the intention of the interaction is really, probably what makes it more profound.
[DAWN]:
Yes, so setting up that intention of this is why we’re meeting and also there’s a time limit on it. Because sometimes it’s, you can’t live like that a hundred percent of the time, being that intentional, that deep. So knowing there’s a timeframe around it and yes, it’s just so powerful that everyone’s agreeing to this group too. Everyone knows what they’re signing on for.
[CARRIE]:
Yes, and I think that there are some groups that are ongoing and that people just say, we’re going to see when this ends and other times they can be really short. A group is such a broad term that I feel like there’s so many right ways that we could think about different types of gatherings or groups, but there is, I think it does depend on the intention and being very clear around what are we doing here and why are we doing it? That can help really guide how we facilitate groups and what we choose to focus in on because it’s just so big. There’s so many options in a group.
[DAWN]:
Yes. I love that. Actually it’s making me super curious about your personal life. Do you feel, outside of therapy groups, do you see this also in friend groups or do you feel like you find yourself wanting clarity and intentionality around a friend group almost, if that makes sense?
[CARRIE]:
I think in my personal life I’m probably known as the person who always wants to go deep. I always want to know more. I’m that person that they’re like, oh my gosh, Carrie, because we practice this all day. As therapists, may have brought me into the field because I want to know people deeply. I’m not the best at small talk. Sometimes I have to lighten up quite a bit because I’m like, “Tell me all the things. I want to know you. What matters to you?” For me that’s really like the juicy parts of life. I mean, hopefully I’m not always doing that in my friendships, but I think they’re just people that are drawn to me are drawn to that same way of being. So I wouldn’t say if someone invites me out to dinner, I’m like, “Well what’s her intention here?”
New Speaker:
I won’t go that far and be like we need to really be intentional. And I probably am the friend that’s like, do you want to do something for top honor the solstice? What are we going to do? Do you want to like take a weekend girls trip? Of course, if I’m on the weekend girls trip, I’m thinking like when do we do a meditation circle? I want to create meaning. Or if I’m on a hike, like we’re talking about life and God. That’s just who I am in the world.
[DAWN]:
I love it. I love it. For my listeners, Carrie and I met like almost a little over a year ago at the Art of Dreaming Big retreat. This is when we talked about some big ideas and that’s when I started figuring out this podcast and launching it. But I just remember being drawn to you, Carrie, because of everything you just said. That’s how I am in the world too. Sometimes I realize I have to be careful because then all my friends are therapists and then it’s sometimes too intense and like, “We have to have fun. The intention of this is going to be just fun.”
[CARRIE]:
Oh I can so relate to you. There’s times where I’m like, I need that friend to help pull me out and just be like, “Come on Carrie. Lighten up. Don’t take yourself so seriously. Let’s just go be silly or watch a sitcom.”
[DAWN]:
Are you familiar with the Enneangram?
[CARRIE]:
Yes.
[DAWN]:
So I’m like I have to have a seven in my life at all times to get me out. I mean, I feel like I have a lot of fun, but being a mom and owning a business has tapered my fun a bit and my spontaneity, I would say, but I always have to have a seven on my friend list because otherwise —
[CARRIE]:
What’s your number?
[DAWN]:
I’m a three.
[CARRIE]:
You’re a three. Okay.
[DAWN]:
What are you?
[CARRIE]:
Two.
[DAWN]:
Okay. I have a strong two wing and then I feel like internally I relate with a one a lot as well. So I feel like I’m, but three is what I’ve settled on.
[CARRIE]:
I have a three wing too, with a three wing is what I think.
[DAWN]:
I could see that. Well let’s jump in even more like, can you get more specific on, maybe people are not understanding we do because we’ve been in groups and we know the spiritual feel, but what does that actually look like or feel like? You said to be known and to be seen, but is there anything more you can explain about what that looks like for people who might not have experienced it or they’re trying to figure out if they want to experience it?
[CARRIE]:
Yes, absolutely. I’m just going to talk about two types of groups that I feel like have been more of the depth spiritual experiences for me. Of course, there are so many, I mean, but I think it stays vague when we just say group, because there’s so many kinds. There’s skills groups and psychoeducational groups and retreat and, I mean, it’s just, we could go on and on. So I think just to make it a little more concrete, I’m going to talk about two types. One is process-oriented groups, which, or the groups that I learned when I first fell in love with group work. What I loved about those groups was that the intention in these groups was to talk about what is happening in the here and now relationships in the room. So the thought was that we come into the world and we have certain experiences and those experiences change the way we relate and we learn how to stay safe and get approval.
New Speaker:
We do that in our personal relationships based on our family of origin. Those strategies really work well for when we’re growing up in those families but then later on in life, they can get in the way. So we may feel protected, but we may not be experiencing the connection or the love or the vitality that we’d like to experience in our relationships. We don’t need to protect ourselves necessarily in the same ways anymore. So we begin to see that these patterns are the things stopping us. We can talk about that in individual therapy. I can come in and say, well, there’s this pattern going on in my life where I notice that I don’t feel connected to people. I notice people aren’t as drawn to me or I’m lonely a lot. I can talk to my individual therapist about that.
New Speaker:
If I’m in a group, it usually will start to play out in the group. So what is happening in my life in a well facilitated process group begins to take shape in the group. Then you and the client gets to actually try to get, gets to experience what happens in their life, that familiar feeling that they’re dissatisfied with, but then there’s this opportunity to experiment with new behaviors of doing it differently. That’s not as available in individual therapy as it is in a group because our relationship really isn’t like any other relationship. You know I am paid to hang on your every word, to have no needs, to be available. So this is not an ideal, like a real relationship. It’s not really helpful to practice relationship skills in individual therapy, because that’s not very realistic to expect that of anyone in your life, what your therapist will give you.
[DAWN]:
That is so, I’ve never, I mean, it’s totally true, but I’ve never thought about it that way. It’s true they need to be in group to exponentially go through that.
[CARRIE]:
Yes. Because they have to be in groups and be like, oh wow, I have needs but so does this other person. There are things I have to offer and there are things I have to learn. This is a real relationship. Your therapist is a real relationship, but it’s a different type of relationship that isn’t really. So in the group, I feel like we don’t just talk about what’s happening, but we actually start to experience it and get to have those real live experience of saying I’m noticing that I feel disconnected in here. I feel like I’m not connected. We have support to say, I wonder what that’s about and what would it be like, what do you notice you do when you start to do that?
New Speaker:
Do you pull away more? Do you lean in? What is it like for other people? Do you feel connected to Carrie? So there’s all this ability. To me that’s really sacred and holy, because that’s our heart. That’s like putting our heart and our humanity out there. Like most people when they’re on their deathbeds the thing that they regret the most is not sharing their love, not connecting with others, not feeling as seen. That’s what matters to us. So for me, what happened was I realized a lot of the time, like when I was working with clients, there was a lot that I didn’t feel like I could really help them with, that stuff we learned in school could really help. But what I did know is that all of my clients who had really strong relationships that felt really connected to other people, they fared so much better, no matter what the world dealt them.
New Speaker:
No matter their circumstances, they coped and they had meaning in life and they could get through the hardest things because they were connected. So I felt if I can teach people how to do that, then I can really give them something that they’ll always have, because that’s really why they’re coming to therapy. A lot of the time is just to feel so seen, just to be connected. So I want to give that. I want to teach them the skills so they can have that out in their lives. For me, that was intensely rewarding and meaningful. That’s what these groups taught people, is to say, wow, how do you show up more authentically? How do you feel more connected? How do you remove patterns that have kept you safe, but leave you wanting?
[DAWN]:
That’s what you were calling a process group where that’s where you experience. This is what’s happening here and now. It’s not like a psychoeducational group. It’s not a coping skill. It’s just a very raw, authentic group, which I do love and think those are my favorite and the best.
New Speaker:
Hi there it’s me, Dawn. I just wanted to take a moment and say that if you’ve been listening to something today and you feel maybe nudged to go deeper into your faith journey, I offer a free eight-week email course called Spiritual Reflections. I promise it’s only one email a week. It’s a short exercise and a short email and included is a journaling workbook that has guided exercises that will help you explore more of what you were brought up to believe. Even if you’ve been disillusioned or hurt on your faith journey yet still deep down you’re desiring to authentically connect with God and you can feel that then this course is for you. Just go to faithfringes.com to sign up for your free Spiritual reflections Course today.
[DAWN]:
You said there were two. What’s the second type you were thinking about?
[CARRIE]:
So I did those groups for many, many years and there was still a part of me though, that yearned for something even more and maybe more spiritual in nature. I found myself in my own journey doing a lot of work, connecting to my soul, connecting more, creating my own relationship with my own divinity. I grew up Catholic and I moved away from that but I still felt like I had a connection to something greater than myself. So I found myself doing a lot of my own spiritual exploration and felt my clients yearning for that too. I also was looking for a way that felt more feminine. I noticed that the models that I learned in group therapy, while there were beautiful moments, it still felt very head-oriented. We were talking a lot, thinking a lot, and the body wasn’t even included.
New Speaker:
We weren’t moving. There was no music. There was no softness. The room, the way the room looked didn’t matter too much. It might be sterile clinical. So there was a masculine feel that didn’t really align with the way that I was seeing my practice and my development moving. I wanted to learn from a woman. I wanted to learn more feminist therapies and I found myself drawn to this woman. Her name was Jaheim and she created a practice that was called Circle Work.
New Speaker:
This practice does have some process oriented group elements in it, but it also has music and movement and meditation. It has ritual and it really incorporates the body and the senses. It’s often done in nature with a beautiful natural environment, really taking into account beauty. So it was all these elements that we traditionally associate with the feminine brought in to also this intimacy that I had fallen in love with, with group work. When I heard about that, I was like, this really is calling me. I wrote in, so Jaheim is really an amazing woman.
New Speaker:
She has been doing these circles for many, many years, and she went to the Middle East and would do these types of circles with Israeli and Palestinian women to help, to create more peace; so having these women who have been set up to be enemies, and to get them in a room together and help them to really recognize their shared humanity. They would do the practices together. The beautiful thing about circle work is that there’s no dogma. You don’t have to believe in anything. You can come in with 10 people with 10 different spiritual traditions and beliefs, and everyone can coexist because it’s not about that. There’s a candle lit right in the center and everyone can relate to it as the source, divinity.
New Speaker:
Whatever name you want to call it, it doesn’t really matter because it’s beyond our language. It’s just that knowing of something that feels sacred. So you use a lot of the practices in circle work, bring people together on a level that is beyond language, beyond our ideas and more in our hearts, just going from the head into the heart and really acknowledging our shared humanity. Sometimes it’s not always beautiful. I mean, but conflict is part of the sacre, like light and dark; what all of those things are part.
New Speaker:
I had a really profound experience. I traveled to Ithaca and did the training with Jaheim’s circles. There’s women from all over the world that come and we spent five days at a retreat center doing, participating and learning how to do circle facilitation. Then the following year I went back and did another year with the second training just to repeat it because there’s a lot to learn. I still am regularly mentored with Jaheim because it’s just such a profound practice. So for me now I facilitate a women’s circle and I facilitate a yearly retreat to train circles. Jaheim is no longer training. She retired. So now I’m hoping to spread it because it’s such a beautiful practice and it’s innately spiritual.
[DAWN]:
Well I seriously took a ton of notes. Send me the link for your next circle retreat. I want to go.
[CARRIE]:
Okay.
[DAWN]:
I want to be trained
[CARRIE]:
The fall. It’s in September 29th, 2022. So I’ll talk to you.
[DAWN]:
I have a soul care retreat the weekend before that so yes, maybe I’ll just do individual consultation with you because I want to learn this so much. I literally took a page of notes as you were talking. I’m like, this sounds like, I was getting goosebumps. It just sounded amazing. For me, as my listeners know my background being more conservative Christian upbringing, there was no body work like. That was, if you did yoga that you might invite the devil in. It was all head knowledge and so in my last five to 10 years, I’ve been more experientially pursuing my spirituality as well.
New Speaker:
So the circle work sounds right at my alley and that’s why I’m going into soul care retreats, doing spiritual formation and more of the feminine, I would say as well. We have, I don’t know if you can see behind me, I have rocks and we’re going to be, I mean, we’re going to be holding space and creating space for the spiritual. There’s, you can’t control that. Some of it is you, as the facilitator walk in and you can control some things, but there’s this thing that happens that you have no control over and that’s the group work.
[CARRIE]:
Exactly. There’s a magic and a mystery. And one of the things that both of my, all of my training in group has taught me is that there is a piece of surrendering to something that is happening that is bigger than us and really being willing to, and that’s very much part of the feminine to be with what is alive right here right now. If we’re stuck in what we’re thinking about or what we think should happen, we miss out on what’s alive. And there’s so much alive in group work. It’s just, whatever’s right here. There’s also this piece of like, just us as the facilitator.
New Speaker:
We’re just a part of something beautiful that’s being co-created with all the participants. I find that it’s just such an empower medium too, because participants are both contributors and they offer and they contribute to the healing and they also are being healed; that there’s this thing that is happening that I think also is more of that collaborative process of like that the healing is inside each of us and that we’re all just holding space for each other to remember and know.
[DAWN]:
Now I know you mentioned the feminine part, so I just want to say in case people are wondering, so men, and I’m not trying to stereotype men and women, but are men drawn to these type of groups too? Do they enjoy them? Have you seen that?
[CARRIE]:
Yes, that’s a great question. So the way that I think about it is that for many, many years, we have found that these qualities that are traditionally associated with the feminine, which are gentleness, compassion, beauty, peacefulness, slowness, soft, those qualities really are in all of us. We all have masculine and feminine in us. I mean we’ve just named those as feminine qualities and then we’ve subjugated those. So our society and culture doesn’t really celebrate those qualities. But what we know is that in all the ways that we’re at a balance in the world, in all the ways that we’re struggling with our environment, that our men and boys are struggling with not being able to show their vulnerability, not having spaces to show their humanity to, they’re boxed in just as much, if not more.
New Speaker:
So when I say associated with the feminine, it’s really about bringing those qualities back for all of us, including men and boys and especially is there a bigger hurdle for them to get to something like this? Absolutely. Because they’ve been more denied the right to express and be fully expressed in those qualities. So there is a bit more of a leap, I think, than for women to show up. There’s even a difficulty sometimes for women to show up. But for men, I think it is more challenging, although I feel like that’s changing a bit and at times we need to invite men in different ways that feel a little more safe for them.
[DAWN]:
Okay. Yes, even when you were talking, I know some people when we’re talking about a processing group, it does sound terrifying, male or female. Because sometimes being that exposed, we all want to be seen, heard, but sometimes that feels super exposing and vulnerable. You, and I know that the mess can be healing, but it doesn’t feel good when you’re in the middle of it. Can you just take a minute to talk about why it’s still necessary, the storming part or the mess that happens in the process of group it can still be spiritual? One of my pillars is how pain and doubt and questionings can lead us into deeper spirituality. So I’m assuming group shows that as well but if you could just talk a little bit about that.
[CARRIE]:
I’m going to tell a story because I think it might highlight how this works in a way that’ll be easier to grab onto. I tell this story a lot, but one client that I particularly remember, he was an individual client and had struggled with some alcoholism, some difficulty feeling connected to other people and romantic relationships or friendships. So I encouraged him to do a process group and the first process group he did, he enjoyed it, but at the end, everyone was going around and giving feedback. The feedback that he got was I wish I would’ve gotten to know you better. I wish I would’ve known you. He got that several time from many people. “I just wish I would’ve known you.” It was pretty devastating for him because he said, “I felt so connected to all of these people but they didn’t feel connected to me,” which is what happened in his life.
New Speaker:
It was an aha to him that he could feel connected, but that people weren’t feeling connected to him. So he decided to do a second process group because at the university, they were like 10 weeks, so a lot of times in the first process oriented group, they would just learn what their work was. They’d just get the awareness of like, oh, what is the thing? That was his experience. So in the second group, what happened was there were several, there was a woman in the group who would come in and she would share a whole bunch. She’d just share, share, share about everything going on in her life. The members really rallied around her, supported her and this happened for three weeks in a row.
New Speaker:
She just kept coming in and it was sort of like sharing which again, that’s her style that was playing out in the group. Then one group, maybe the fourth group, she just didn’t show up. She wasn’t there. For several groups, fourth, fifth, six, she wasn’t there. She just no-show, no call. The group wrote her off and went on. In this particular group session, maybe it was the sixth session one woman had shared something really painful about an assault that she had experienced. The group was really close, really supporting her very intimate. And usually what happens is a group is when one person is willing to share at that vulnerable level, then it prompts that other people can also share and so the group just gets deeper and more connected.
New Speaker:
That’s the place that they were at. Then we come into the seventh group and this woman that had shared all that just shows up. She just comes back to the group, which was very rare for this to happen. We, as the facilitators are like, whoa, because she just showed up, then walked into group. She walks in and she just starts sharing, sharing, sharing, like her normal pattern and the group is just like beside themselves. I mean, they’re still with this other last group, this other woman who had shared something so painful.
New Speaker:
So this client decided to confront her and just said, “I’m going to stop you. So and so shared something so vulnerable and we still haven’t been able to check in with her. I’m feeling pretty angry. We gave you a lot of time. You haven’t even acknowledged that you haven’t been here for three or four weeks and now you’re coming in and you’re unaware.” He just really showed up and told her the truth. I mean he was firm, but not mean, just honest. She got pretty upset and she left the room, which was not great, I mean. So one of us facilitators went after her and the other one stayed with the group.
New Speaker:
That’s why it’s sometimes really nice to have two for things like that. But what happened was he sat there and he was just like, oh my gosh, I made the biggest mistake. He was in so much shame for saying anything to her. He felt awful, terrible. So it’s his worst fear. He would never want to do that. All the group were like, “Thank you so much. Thank you for saying that. I was feeling this.” They really just praised him for his honesty, his authenticity, and that was really a turning point for him. So a lot of people worry about the other woman. We talked with her, worked with her. She did not end up coming back to this group, but she did do another group in the future and was able to work on that pattern but this is what happened in this group.].
New Speaker:
The thing that happened is, and this is your point about to go through the mess is for him, that’s what a corrective emotional experience was. What we found out is his story is that when he was young, he was really severely bullied by his older brother and so much so that he decided that he just wanted to stay under the radar to keep himself safe. So he would just really disappear. For him, that’s how he stayed safe. But then it was showing up in the group because he wasn’t able to be connected to. He was safe, no one saw him, but also no one saw him.
New Speaker:
So he took this risk, which was the thing that he wanted to do with his brother; is to confront the person who he was feeling bullied by and to say no. He wasn’t able to do that as a kid because nobody, he may have gotten really hurt, really harmed. So for him, that was a turning point and at the end of this group, the members said, I felt so connected to you. It was especially when you were able to stand up. So for him, he took that lesson that he’s not a child anymore, and that he could speak up and show up in relationships, that it was protective and not anymore, but he had to get through the it.
New Speaker:
All of it felt icky, the to not be seen, to have to say that to somebody, but he really had a broader range of emotional expression after that time where he felt like the world didn’t collapse and actually people felt more connected to him. So there was a turning point where he could be more authentic in all of his relationships; not really with his brother, but others after that point. So that’s an example of how that work, being in the mess and being in the hard stuff then can lead to that more connection, more expression, ultimately.
[DAWN]:
I love that. I mean, just hearing that, I feel like everyone’s going to be signing up for groups now because yes, the reality is we are going to have issues come out and that’s okay, especially if it’s in a safe place with one or two facilitators who can handle that and let it work itself out and help facilitate that. I think that’s such a powerful and again, spiritual place to be, so, wow. It makes me say, why aren’t we doing more groups?
[CARRIE]:
Well, and the thing that’s so amazing about that is even the group members who are watching him do this work, because our job as facilitators is we help to make sense of what just happened, like explain it the way I did so that we can both experience it in body and then understand it cognitively so we can take it out into our lives. The cool thing is that when somebody has a breakthrough like that, every person in the group is also thinking, what’s my pattern? What’s the thing I do? So they get to do the work with that person. It’s not just one person benefiting, but they get to experience a little bit of like, oh, how do I relate to him? What is the thing that I need to take a risk and do? What’s in my way. So can be such a beautiful synergistic process of everyone getting the healing from one person’s work.
[DAWN]:
Now I would love for you to let my listeners know how can they get ahold of you? I know you have a plenty of different ways. I want you to talk about like your circle work, if it’s open, your podcast, your consulting. Just give us some of your ways to get ahold of you.
[CARRIE]:
So the best way is just go to the artofgroups.com and on there, all the opportunities are open. So in the fall I do the circle facilitators retreat. That’s in-person here in Colorado at Sunrise Ranch and that’s really for people who want to learn how to do the circles and Jalaja has several books that are out that you can pick up and learn more about her. I’m not teaching circle work because Jalaja doesn’t like, it’s not like you are the circle work, but it’s really informed by her and it’s my own stuff because there’s no way to really teach circle work, but just know that it’s informed by all my years doing groups and that. But it’s similar.
New Speaker:
Then the biggest thing that’s really exciting is I’m offering also a training group that’s online for therapists who want to learn how to work in the here and now. So it’s an online process group where therapists can actually be in the groups, so they will be doing their own work and then we do three teaching sessions where after they do that work, then once a month, we look back over and talk about, this is the stage we’re in. This is why we’re doing what we’re doing. So they can actually learn how to facilitate in a way that, because that’s the other thing, is that we don’t get taught or trained how to facilitate groups and we get thrown in.
New Speaker:
So you’ve said many times that there’s harm that can happen. A lot of times it’s just because we didn’t know and we didn’t get the training or support we need. So I’m really committed to that. So that starts in February and we’re doing screening for that in January. Then I have a podcast, the Art of Groups podcast, again by the same name. I just try to interview people who are doing amazing different types of groups, transformational group work and share what I know about all that I can offer to help educate and empower facilitators to facilitate transformational groups.
[DAWN]:
I love it. Thank you so much for your time and just hearing your thoughts and your wisdom and experiences. I’ve really enjoyed it. I know I’ll be, after we stop recording, I’ll be asking a few more questions but thank you so much.
[CARRIE]:
Thank you, it’s the joy.
[DAWN]:
Thank you for listening today to the Faith Fringes podcast. For those of you wanting to take a deeper dive into your own faith journey, you can grab my free email course Spiritual Reflection on my website, faithfringes.com. If you’re a therapist and would want to work with me, I offer sacred space holding for you through my consulting, as well as my soul care retreats. To find out more, go to my website or email me at dawn@faithfringes.com.
New Speaker:
I love hearing from all my listeners. Drop me email to tell me what’s on your mind. You can also connect with me on social media. I’m on Facebook and Instagram at Faith Fringes. As always, if you’re enjoying this podcast, I would love it if you could show it by your reviews. Go to Apple Podcasts and leave your reviews so that others can find this podcast and get curious about their own spiritual journey. Thanks again for listening.
New Speaker:
Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.
New Speaker:
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