IS GOD STILL GOOD WHEN BAD THINGS HAPPEN, WITH LATHAN CRAFT | EP 26

[DAWN GABRIEL]
Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, host of Faith Fringes Podcast, recording live from Castle Rock Colorado, not only where I love to live, but I also work as the owner of a counseling center in the historic downtown. This podcast is a place to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. For those desiring deeper connection with God and engaging their spirituality in new ways, this will be a safe place to allow doubt, questions and curiosity, without judgment. We will be creating intentional space to listen in on other’s faith journeys, whether that is deconstruction or reconstruction, with the hope of traveling alongside you on your own spiritual path. If you’re interested in getting even more out of this podcast, grab my free email course Spiritual Reflections on my websitefaithfringes.com. Welcome to the podcast.

Hello, this is Dawn Gabriel, your host of Faith Fringes. I am coming to you today and we are near the end of August when I’m recording this. So much has changed even in the last month for me. I don’t know about you. My kids have gone back to school and then people are still getting sick and there’s just a lot of tension again in the world. And while it does give me a heavy heart one thing I’ve been noticing that is bringing me joy is my listeners and the podcast that as I interview guests and bring it to you, the listeners, I am realizing more than ever, that it’s really hitting a purpose button for me. And I’m really enjoying jumping in and talking about things that are spiritual. I feel like it’s helping me at least keep grounded and I hope that you are finding it too on your spiritual journey, that you are able to just kind of listen and kind of think through things and experience things with the guests as you listen to them and listen in on their journey.

I just think it’s so important to not focus so much on what the social media and the news and the world is telling us. Sometimes we have to shut it all out and go within and find something deeper. And to me, that’s my faith, that’s my spirituality and it just feels calmer there. I mean, sometimes not. I talk all the time about doubt and anger and deconstruction. However, for me it really is a solid foundation that helps me go to sleep at night and get up the next morning. I have to take some deep breaths with all the crazy going on in the world right now. So today it’s going to be interesting. Our guest speaker today is Lathan Craft, and I’ll tell you a little bit about him in a second, but as we listen in, I just really enjoyed interviewing him.

He was instantly warm and kind, and just had a lot of deep thoughts to share with us on how to work with people when they’re in pain physically or emotionally, like how to respond to people and just some deep things like what happens when God doesn’t make sense or when God, is God always good when bad things happen. So we kind of dive into some like theology and some deeper thoughts and he has an incredible story that you will hear. In fact, it’s a fresh news story that in the last two months of his life, a crisis that he and his family have been experiencing and I was just so privileged to get to talk to him and interview him.

So let me tell you a little bit about him. Lathan Craft is an international bestselling author and highly respected speaker. He’s the host of the nationally recognized podcast The Other Side Of The Church, which features regular guests, such as Matthew West, Blanca and Bob, who Lathan has also worked closely with. Lathan has been featured on various podcasts and radio shows such as The Crappy Christian podcast, Are You Real podcasts and Faith Positive Radio. He is the founder of Made For Purpose, a coaching and consulting business, helping people work in their design and description. He also is the founder of A Heartbeat From Hope, a nonprofit organization, giving individualized hope to the most hopeless of places. He also is the founder of After-Words, helping writers write their story before it’s too late. Lathan has degrees in psychology and counseling, leadership and ministry. Ultimately Lathan has devoted his life to researching and articulating the importance of belonging and how words truly can change the world. Help me welcome Lathan to the podcast. Lathan, welcome to the podcast.
[LATHAN CRAFT]
Dawn, it’s so good to be here.
[DAWN]
Thank you. My listeners don’t know this, but this is our first time meeting, but even in the last 10 minutes where we’ve been talking before we started recording, I feel like there’s just so much in common with my listeners.
[LATHAN]
Yes. I, as I mentioned to you, when we were just talking off the record, I love Faith Fringes. When I saw the invite of the idea, Faith Fringes, I think that’s where I’ve lived a lot of my life. So I really love how beautifully you titled your podcast.
[DAWN]
Thank you. It took, I had a coach and a consultant working with me and it took a few months to kind of figure out what my message really was going to be. And I just really love, yes, it took a while to pick, so thank you. I love that. So tell us more like, yes, say more, you just kind of said that it’s kind of where you lived your life. I’d love to hear more about that. Just share a little bit about you and where you’re coming from so we can know more.
[LATHAN]
So I grew up in Texas, which is notoriously the Bible belt of the world. I was actually watching the news this past Saturday and the newscaster said when you go to church tomorrow. So it’s just this understood in our city of everybody’s going to church and I’ve come to realize just being back in my second stint back in Tyler there aren’t enough seats in all the churches in Tyler to fit the amount of people that are even in Tyler. So we say that we’re the Bible belt and that everybody goes to church, but we can’t even fit everybody in church if we wanted to.

So I grew up in this conservative Southern Baptist, SBC drenched like church. And I remember it was kind of like this shot I was given. You know what I mean? Like you’re a kid, this is just what you’re going to believe, and I remember just being okay with that, accepting that. I met Jesus in middle school and that was kind of what I thought was going to be my life, just kind of apathetic, mundane Christianity of like, yes, I guess I’m going to be going to a church. It looks like this. And working at nine to five Monday through Friday and really not applying anything I’m learning on Sunday to my nine to five, but that’s just the American dream. And I remember like through my pain, when I experienced pain, when life got real, if you will, I didn’t have room for my faith. I didn’t know how to make sense of the gospel that I hadn’t necessarily read, but had been preached at and thought that that was good enough for my personal faith.

Was just to listen to sermons and that was all the juice that I needed. But I remember just going through my high school and then choosing a college and almost being like, put into a box at this college, you’re going to go to, like, if you want to follow this SPBC journey, here we’re going to end up going to college. And I chose, I guess I was the prodigal son because I chose not to go to that college and I chose to go to a liberal arts and really just liberal ideology college in California which was the gasp of my family. Everybody was wondering if I was unrepentant and if I had needed Jesus or whatever. And I remember that’s when Jesus became really. To me was kind of being out on my own and finding that this God and this person that I had been taught at my whole life, wasn’t really who I was reading in the gospel and this person that I thought I’d been believed Him was actually a lot more compassionate and gracious than what I really liked.

Like, I found myself more attracted to the God that I read about more than the God that I was read to. So going into college and being there for four years, I really felt God telling me, just shaping me. Obviously, He’s always shaping me, but just shaping me into who He’s created to be. So I started doing church ministry and I was a teaching pastor and a student pastor and all these things like a church planner, whatever it may be. I just mentioned it this past year, got really, met me where I was in the middle of my busyness of ministry and said, “Hey, who I’m calling you to reach you’re not going to find them here.” They’re not going to be in these seats. They’re not going to come and listen to your sermons. They’re not going to come listen to worship. They’re actually the lost sheep that are really hurt. They’ve been really hurt by church and they’re out in the past, go find them.
[DAWN]
What did you do with that when you heard that? Did you say, okay, or did it take a while?
[LATHAN]
What’s funny is my wife has been, my wife and I are super passionate with the same people. So she’s been feeling the same thing for a long time. I think the really sad and sick part Dawn is like, when you’re in full-time ministry, you can kind of get like anesthesia of ministry and think that you’re untouchable number one, but also like, this is going to be the rest of your life. Like you are somebody, you have an identity in this and it becomes all you are. So I refuse to listen to even my wife in that area of my life, because I knew she couldn’t empathize, which actually she could but I don’t think she understood which actually she did. So it took me a long time, it took God meeting me in the parking lot of the church that I was working at and then me calling her just weeping and apologizing and repenting and saying, “I’m so sorry for making you feel like you had to follow me when I’m not even following Jesus. I’m so sorry for that.” So it wasn’t an immediate, it wasn’t a, I wish it was like, yes, Laura, here we go. It was all right, and it almost like this, when you leave a ministry job, people think you fell.
[DAWN]
Yes, I can see that.
[LATHAN]
People think that you’re going to get in the headline news, like in the next couple days, your story will be leaked in some capacity. So people are kind of just waiting on to see what actually happens to you.
[DAWN]
Yes, what’s the real story.
[LATHAN]
Yes, and especially when you say I’m following Jesus and leaving, it’s like, whoa, yes, good one. So thankfully, the one the bright side of the pandemic is it gave a reason, it gave us the out we were looking for to go back to Tyler, where we are now and move back to Texas with our whole family and try to figure out life in the midst of pandemic here, but also try to reorient ourselves into what God’s calling us into this place for. And it’s become very apparent over the past several months. But to answer your first question, it was not an easy yes. I wish it was. It was a yes with a limp, I think you could say.
[DAWN]
Yes. And I mean, aren’t we grateful though for that, because I think how many times is it an easy yes for us? I feel like when there’s some deep work that God is calling us to do and that we’re needing to do, He’s okay with our limp and that’s why we need Him. Like we can lean into him in that moment. It’s almost more dependent than from what it sounds like your ministry. It was just like, I can just do this. I know what I’m doing, but here, it sounds like, okay, God, what’s going on.
[LATHAN]
Yes, and in the midst of pain, like what you’re addressing here, like part of my story right now is I got off brain surgery. And I miss the intimacy of Jesus, like already. It seems, it is not because I’m not doing my part or carrying, it’s just, Jesus is so sticking and intimate in the moments that we really have no other option and we really are fully dependent. So I miss that intimacy and I miss that, like, “Hey, I’m here and I’m not going anywhere.” And now it’s just seeking him out as opposed to him just being all in all, if that makes sense.
[DAWN]
Yes, so you’re saying you just got off of brain surgery, can you explain that a little more for my listeners? And I also, with that, are you saying you felt Him when you were in those surgeries or when did you say you miss Him, when did you feel Him? When did you not?
[LATHAN]
So it’s great questions. So I was playing softball and ran into a fence and three days later found myself in emergency brain surgery because my brain had shifted and my spinal fluid was leaking for my spine. It was just crazy. So I had three brain surgeries in a span of about six and a half weeks. And I flatlined once and my wife was told to plan for a funeral, was going to be told to plan for a funeral, but she missed the doctor. She wasn’t in the room when the doctor thought she was going to be in the room. But I found out later that she was going to be told to plan for a funeral for me, because I didn’t think I make it through the night at one point. And that night in the ICU, it wasn’t in surgery, but it was in the ICU nights where I was on a, literally just on the time, you’re watching the time for when I can get pain meds again.

But all I was, was just laying there, taking up space and trying to fight for the next breath. That’s when Jesus was overwhelming to me and that’s when He became just visible and tangible of just, “Hey, I’m here. I’m very acquainted with pain. I know pain works and I’m here with you.” I know it’s in those moments of when everybody, doctor, medicine, everybody was counting me out and it’s so easy now for me to just stay the term walking miracle. Like it just flows easily. It just sounds cute, but I shouldn’t be here. And it’s the reality of God saying no, no, no, no, no, and here’s why you’re here and I’m here and you’re done with you. And that was the intimacy that I miss of just this, nobody else in the room. It really just felt like it was me and and Him, of this constant conversation and intimacy and communion.
[DAWN]
Wow. I feel like we just need to pause here for a second because that, I know you can’t see me, but like my mouth is open, my jaw is dropped and my eyes are really wide. I’m just like, oh my gosh. I didn’t know this, whole part of the story. I mean, I know you emailed me and said, “Hey, we have to reschedule our podcast. I had brain surgery.” I’m like, “Are you okay? Are you sure we can do it this Friday?” And here you’re telling me you almost died and you did flatline and yes, the intimacy of Jesus. Honestly, Lathan, I hear that a lot. I work with trauma clients a lot. It’s one of my specialties and when we go back into those moments of, yes they feel God’s presence that maybe they haven’t felt before until we’re looking back at it. But I do hear that a lot for people in those deepest, darkest moments that He’s there with them. He might not fix it. Sometimes He does, but the presence is so huge.
[LATHAN]
And that thing too, because one of my wife’s posts when I was in the hospital, she was posting our behalf obviously, and one of her posts, she put the crafts do hard well and just that sentence of like, all of our lives are hard. All of our, like our childhoods were hard. We became very acquainted with therapy because of our childhood. It’s not because of a personal choice. And now it’s just, it’s almost a hobby for us with therapy, just like the love of that. But all that to say, I love that you had pointed the whole what if you don’t get the right answer, because there were so many days that I would look out my room, I opened the door because I hated being, I’m not Claus, but I hate being confined.

So I would look out the door and body bag after body bag, after body bag would just go through the hall. And I remember just thinking and sometimes even hearing some of the families go behind that body bag and saying things like why God. And I realized that those people were praying the same prayers I was, the same prayers that people that were praying for me were. They actually didn’t get the answer they wanted and is God so good? Does God still deserve our worship even if we don’t get the answer that we selfishly want? Because, as I mentioned earlier, the answer should have been a body bag answer. Like that should have been what was happening, but God is great for some reason that I may not know this out of eternity decided to keep me here, at least for this time being. But what if He didn’t and I left my wife with our two young babies? Would He still be good? Would we still worship Him as we would, if He answered the way we wanted Him to?
[DAWN]
Wow. That’s a huge question. And I sit with that a lot personally, I sit with that a lot with my clients. And I’m curious, have you, I’m not asking for like an answer with a bow on it, but like have you, what have you come up with?
[LATHAN]
That’s my answer. I’m just kidding. I think the answer is still good either way. We just may not interpret it as good. Like I really think that God putting a dot, dot, dot as opposed to a yes, or opposed to a no is still a good answer. And our human fallen nature has inclined us to interpret anything other than a yes as a negative. And I don’t think it should be that. It’s much easier for me to say that when I’m on this side of it, as opposed to if that was a loved one or that was myself. Like, sure, it’s much easier to try to make sense of it. But what I’ve, what I really feel is maybe God, maybe those people feel like God gave them a skip card. He hears maybe your prayers, but He decided to play the gift card on you and you’re not worth of His answer when actually the answer that He’s giving you takes much more time than a time sensitive prayer.
[DAWN]
Yes. And I’m glad you’re saying this, because I think so much when we’re in the moment of that deep anguish and we’re questioning God, He sees, I mean, He’s eternal, so He can see before us and after us. And we don’t have the concept to hold that space for that and He does. So if He’s saying yes or no, and we take that as good or bad, it may makes it more about us and not about like a secure truth and a secure foundation and we make it about our circumstances. And I can’t trust that. I mean, literally if you look at it when I’m not in pain I don’t want to trust in something that’s based on my feelings and based on my circumstance. That’s more terrifying actually. So it is a paradigm shift of how do we get there yes to learn how to trust God, even when we feel like His no is devastating?
[LATHAN]
Yes. I say no to people. That does not mean that I don’t love them. That does not mean, and obviously I’m not trying to put myself in the position of God. I’m just saying that, why do we view God’s no as hatred, but man’s no is acceptance in a twisted way? Because God, we don’t know. We may never know. And that’s another thing that we have to literally accept. What if we never knew God’s answers for the prayers that we feel He said no to? Would that still be okay? Some people will literally walk away from the faith because of that.
[DAWN]
I’ve seen it.
[LATHAN]
And it’s easy, well it’s not easy, but you don’t blame them. Like because of the, I mean, I don’t want to call it a lack of maturity, but like the process of trying to wrestle with these lofty things, there’s no concrete answer for. It would make sense.
[DAWN]
Yes. It’s sometimes it’s too hard and I want to have compassion for that journey and I think God hasn’t given up hope. I think He’s still holding out that hope to them, but like, let’s have compassion for them as they walk away because it is hard.
[LATHAN]
Yes. And it reminds me of the story of Lazarus of, Mary comes, or Mary Martha, whichever one did come to the village and says, “Hey, my brother’s dying.” And Jesus doesn’t move. He doesn’t respond in the way the sisters wanted Him to respond. And then finally, a couple days later, they come back and say, it’s too late. He’s gone. And then He says something, which if I was a sister of Lazarus said me, I would have a hard time not giving Him a weird facial expression or flopping on the face because He says, He’s not dead. He’s sleeping. Oh, oh, okay. Thanks. So sometimes in our prayers, what we feel God’s saying to us is like Chinese compared to what’s actually happening in our life. And then Jesus comes back and knows He can raise Lazarus from the dead and still decides to grieve, which is powerful in that sense. But then what raises Lazarus from the dead.

And it’s this process of even Jesus who was fully God, fully man, didn’t like beckon Himself to man, didn’t stop, drop everything and say, okay, I’m going to go attend to Lazarus right now. There was something in the waiting that He wanted to teach and the waiting is so anti-cultural to us, which is what I’ve experienced the past six weeks of this. What about in between? What about in the waiting, when there’s nothing, they’re just great. And that’s so in this hustle and bustle, grinded our culture. Waiting seems like you’re wrong and you’re in time out when actually waiting could be refining.
[DAWN]
Wow. That’s huge. Well, and I think that what you said is He even chose to weep and grieve. To me, that just shows, like what you were saying, He’s with me, He was fully human then and He can grieve with us, even if it’s not perfect, even if we don’t understand and we’re devastated. He can grieve, He can hold us and cry with us.
[LATHAN]
And even when He sees and knows the freaking answer.
[DAWN]
I know. Even though He knew He was going to raise Him from the dead, it was like the process and the journey of that. One of my favorite, have you read the Narnia series, Chronicles of Narnia?
[LATHAN]
Yes.
[DAWN]
Okay. So one of my favorite things, and this goes right along with this is when, I think it’s like in the first one or two books, when the kids in Narnia were figuring out who Aslan was and they’re —
[LATHAN]
I love it.
[DAWN]
Yes. They were like, so he’s a lion. I mean, I’m paraphrasing, he’s a lion. And the beaver, Mr. And Mrs. Beaver say, yes. And they’re like, well, is he safe? And they look at the kids and they say, no, he’s a lion. He’s not safe, but he’s good. And then that shifted for me and I use that a lot because, okay, God, I have to trust you are good even though I’m really angry at you right now, or I’m really sad. And I’ve had many prayers where I’ve said, this is what I really want, God. Here’s what I’m begging you and praying for. And I’m going to be, we’re going to have words if this doesn’t happen. I mean, but on a deep gut reaching level, I’m like, even if this happens, I’m going to be so mad and devastated. I mean, anger is my go-to coverall, but I really mean I’m going to be devastated and destroyed if this happens. So but, and then I also have learned in my life, God can handle that. He can handle the anger. He can handle the disappointment. He can handle the grief. Like it was, I don’t know, I feel like what we’re —
[LATHAN]
Some people, some churches will tell you you can’t handle anger. Some people will actually like I, for a long time in Layton’s childhood, I thought I couldn’t be angry with God.
[DAWN]
Yes, because what would happen? What were you afraid of?
[LATHAN]
Shame. I think that’s what it was masqueraded as. I mean, sure, there were some biblical words that were behind it that would come from the pulpit, but this idea of, I can’t be angry with God because God is good, which is really twisted because if God is good, He can handle my anger. If God is good, He can sit with me and my not good. And what’s really funny is, the thing you just talked about was my first data on Facebook when I found out I was on brain surgery. Brain surgery, and God’s goodness, for some, a lot of people don’t correlate. They can’t be in the same sentence. God can’t be good and bad happen, which actually, the reason that God is good is because He became, He dwelled with us in our bad. He decided to come down, leave perfection, come down into our crap and sit with us in bad. Like that’s what makes God good.
[DAWN]
Yes. And His good cannot be dependent on us, anything about us. It has to be about Him.
[LATHAN]
Yes. And our goodness or the way we interpret God does not change Him.
[DAWN]
Yes. It’s totally our paradigm shift and our heart, our journey with Him.
[LATHAN]
As much as we try to project God onto God, God is going to be who He is, whether we like it or not. And it’s not this like weird warped dad type of persona. It is a, I’m not dependent on you because you don’t want me to be dependent on you.
[DAWN]
Yes. Wow, this is some deep stuff we’re getting into. I love it, yes, because often people have a hard time talking through it because sometimes they’re so far in the pain, they’re not ready to do that yet. So it’s more of like a gentle walking alongside them until they can get there. But I love just speaking this out.
[LATHAN]
And this has been really, we’re going to go there, we’re going to go there Dawn, it’s been really unique to see how, I don’t want to say incompetent, how untrained the church is with pain. Churches have prayer request list. Some churches do, some don’t. Some just have these life groups where you pray and this kind of stays in the life group, but something that I was told of a lot, when I was in church, when I was in the hospital was you were added to my church’s prayer list. Like, what does that accomplish? Because like, we’ve almost put, this is a two-parter answer, we’ve almost put the church prayer list as the temple in the old Testament. Like you’re there. God’s going to heal you because you’re on the prayer list and it’s like, wait a second. Are you saying your prayers or your church prayers are better than my prayers or are you saying that that’s your out, you’re not going to do anything to help me? You’re just going to put me on the prayer list and maybe just, maybe I’ll be healed. Also I have a wife and two boys at home who are trying to figure out how to adjust and live life. And if you had your hands with Jesus, can you attend to them? I’m okay. But can you to them and the church, as a capital C, a lot of time in pain, use prayers out instead of being hospitable to the people that they say they’re praying for.
[DAWN]
Yes, instead of getting their hands dirty and jumping in. And I think a lot of times even individuals, when we say I’m praying for you, sometimes it’s, I’m too uncomfortable to enter in. So I’m going to say I’m praying for you so you know I care and I may or may not shoot off a two second prayer request, but I’m really uncomfortable right now and don’t know what to say.
[LATHAN]
Yes. So to get out to the conversation, but also seem like I love Jesus, I’m going to say, Hey, praying for you and hope that you’ll see that as a compliment and not ask me to do anything else. Because there was one point in my journey of specifically brain surgery where we were talking like minutes or hours of me being here or not. And my wife went on Facebook and said, stop saying you’re praying for my husband, unless you’re actually praying for him. Because there’s a difference, stop saying thoughts and prayers or praying for you or whatever and actually like, don’t respond to this unless you actually are praying for him because he actually needs it right now.

But for me, I’m a two on the Enneagram and so I love when everybody else feels good but I have a hard time with self-love. So even in the hospital I was like, okay, how can Serena feel loved? Oh my gosh, what does Serena need right now? Does she have food? Does she have all? And I shouldn’t have to worry about that if the church is the Church. Like I shouldn’t have to focus on that, but that was my inclination, was who’s loving my family, and for a long time, nobody.
[DAWN]
Wow. I’m so sorry that’s what happened. So people, were they eventually like, oh, we need to see what’s happening with your wife and the boys?
[LATHAN]
Yes. But it shouldn’t have to come, and this is one of my passions, it shouldn’t have to come from the afflicted. Does that make sense?
[DAWN]
You had to say something to get people to go over there?
[LATHAN]
My wife did.
[DAWN]
Okay.
[LATHAN]
So that shouldn’t have to be the answer. And it’s a culture thing. My wife and I were talking about this yesterday, being in Texas we’ve realized that what we were accustomed to in California, which is super hospitable, super generous, that’s not the culture here. Everybody kind of stays in their own circles and what’s really weird is you hear the Southern hospitality type message but it’s not. It’s just, you might get the hello, how you do into the gas station, but as far as how the church can be, the hands and feet and get their hands dirty and all those things, it’s just foreign. It’s a foreign language as far as that, and I think it’s because, specifically in my area in Texas, we’ve become so concreted, if that’s a word, but so entrenched in this religiosity, as I mentioned it earlier this Monday through Friday nine to five, but Sunday church that like this mentality of what church should look like. So it doesn’t fit, like this idea of loving those in pain and caring for the orphan, that widow. Like that whole thing is just so foreign because it does not fit the construct of church here.
[DAWN]
Hmm. Wow. And that’s sad because also in John, the Bible says, we will know we are believers by our love for one another and taking care of one another, not we know they’re Christians because of their to-do list and they’re check off list. Sometimes we do get confused and, I know I have experienced good church community and I’ve experienced not so good church community. I think they’re both out there, but I think what I’m feeling right now, and I kind of want to challenge my listeners or whoever’s hearing this to stop for a minute and think who has been coming to my mind that is in pain or who has COVID right now and just go drop a meal off. Well, they probably can’t taste it. So drop a meal off for their family and drop something off.

Or like get their favorite tea or I don’t know, a gift card so they could order out. Do something and don’t ask them. Just do it. I think I’ll be honest, sometimes I just texted one of my friends and I’m like, oh my gosh, I heard you have COVID. Do you need anything? Can I get groceries? But I should have just like went and did it anyway, just dropped something off for them. Because some people are no, no, no, no. But like just stop and go do something yes. I just want to challenge my listeners.
[LATHAN]
What’s really, I love that you said that, because I have a friend of mine who he and I have just started. You’re the first person to know, again, we’ve just started writing a book. We haven’t figured out what to call it yet. Both of us have experienced this, what you just dressed, this, like what not to say or do when people are in pain. We’ve experienced being the person who’s in pain, in multiple different aspects, but we’ve gotten, the notorious question is let me know if I can do anything for you, which is this, like when you say that you put the ball back in their court and people who in pain, literally don’t know how to dribble. It’s just like, what do I do with this? I don’t know what I need. I want whatever’s happening to not happen.

That’s what I need. But there’s so many times where either prayer or let me know if you need anything becomes the out of people in church or even out of church. And it is the complete opposite of what Jesus would do. But for some reason we have made it into an idea that it’s actually the most American Jesus thing we can do when actually like reading the gospels, whenever people were in pain, Jesus was there. He was present. Sometimes He was delayed like with Lazarus, but He was so near to the broken hearted. That was His answer, which was being present and fulfilling needs it did not seem like a need at all. So maybe it is bringing meal. Maybe it is do something.

I have a friend of mine, my wife, who her kid has been in the NICU for a year in Dallas. So this lady drives an hour and a half every day, one way, and then back to see her kid in the hospital. She’s a teacher and my wife felt compelled last night to send her some money on Venmo and just said, “Hey, I know what it’s like, not for my kid to be in the hospital for a year, but I know what it’s like just to feel and to be, have to go to the hospital, see your kid. I just want to love you.” It was almost like my wife had texted in a foreign language because the lady didn’t know how to respond because she had been so defensive, but also kind of like understood and numb to hospitality and generosity because nobody had shown that because all she’d been given was, “Hey, you’re on my prayer list or Hey, let me know if you need anything.”
[DAWN]
Yes. They’re like, screw the prayer list. I am driving an hour and a half every day. I’m exhausted. And I’m working. Yes, it’s again that compassion and deep sitting with someone. And it sounds like Lathan, you, this isn’t new to you. I know this is fresh, like six weeks ago you had, or no, a few weeks ago you had brain surgery, over three brain surgeries over six weeks. But it sounds like this is something that you are passionate about before this happened. Tell us a little more, I know about, I think, I’m looking at I’m reading all the stuff you’ve done, like the hope, giving back hope to the hopeless. I feel until everyone belongs, I feel like, yes, this is kind of your thing.
[LATHAN]
Yes. I have a really, so it kind of kind of ties into Luke chapter 15 which, oh my gosh, Dawn, when I found out the why behind one of the parables, Jesus was a genius. We don’t give Him credit for being as intelligent as He was. He was a genius. He wasn’t some shepherd boy, fisherman that was just like out and about in the streets. He knew what He was saying. He said everything with a purpose. So in Luke chapter 15, you hear the story of the lost sheep, which notoriously, there is a worship song about it, but there’s a hundred sheep, one of them leaves and Jesus goes after, or the shepherd goes after the one and then brings them back into the flock. But if you ask a shepherd today, why in the world a sheep would leave because you hear it from church probably all the time, how dumb sheep are, sheep aren’t smart as their shepherd, like their brains are hardwired to listen to Shepherd’s command.

So sheep are dumb if their Shepherd’s dumb. But the only reason the sheep would leave the flock is if it was wounded and it would leave because it doesn’t want the rest of the flock to feel burdened by its wound. That is the only reason a sheep becomes one instead of a hundred. So when I realized that, I’ve been the one and I’ve also been the night at night of seeing the one go away and thinking, oh man, I really hope they find Jesus, because they’re really broken or being the one of like, man, I really wish they knew. I wish they knew what I was going through. And that’s my passion, finding the lost sheep in every flock. Whether it’s church hurt, whether it pain, whether it’s misunderstanding, whatever it may be and bringing them back to the shepherd. I don’t need you to be part of the flock. I just want you to know Jesus because Jesus is literally, probably the antithesis of what you’ve been told. And the Jesus that I read is so much greater than what we think He is.
[DAWN]
I love that. I have not heard that story told that way of why the sheep leaves the flock. And what’s coming up for me now is thinking like, if we’re looking at a person, someone wounded, not physically, but emotionally, like it’s like a shame walk, they’re walking away in shame and judgment. And what’s the opposite of that? It’s you need to like have compassion and bring shame into the light because there’s a lot of lies there. So bringing them back to Jesus or even back to a healthy flock that could help tend to that. Instead I think a lot of times as Christians or as churches, we don’t want to see the wounded because that makes us feel like they’re doing something wrong or we can’t handle that or we’re judging that when in reality we’re all wounded. We all need to let it out more. We need to be real and talk about that and stop acting like, I mean, church should be the place for the wounded and should be the place for the lost. Sometimes they don’t feel comfortable there. So, yes. I just, I love that. I love that parable. I can’t wait to think about that more.
[LATHAN]
What if, and I would love the church, but what if we were fully honest in church? What would that actually look like? There would be so much redemption and reconciliation that would happen in that space, but we’re so scared and silenced by shame, shame’s duct taped our lips and said, we’re not good enough. And we are so afraid to speak up about what we’re actually going through, that we are going to say, hey, can you pray for my dog? Something’s wrong with his leg. He may be fine, but like, this is my out to ask for a prayer that has nothing to do with me because you don’t want to know the stuff that I’m actually dealing with.
[DAWN]
Well, and I think that church would also, it would be messy. Even though it’d be beautiful, it’d be messy. And that’s hard. Yes, I think that’s interesting. I think you have something there.
[LATHAN]
There’s a song that was written a long time ago called My Jesus. In one of the, versus, it’s not the best musically, as far as, it’s not something I want to jam to, but I’ll never forget. It’s like ingrained in my head. One of the verses, one of the lines says my Jesus would never be accepted in my church because the blood and dirt on feet would in the carpet. And it’s just this idea, you’re right. Like the church we need is stupid messy, but we have so many brick and mortars and proper and like, it’s got to look a certain way that we don’t have space for mass. The gospel we open is literally like a whole heap of mess.
[DAWN]
Yes. And I think we all need to embrace our own mess so that we can embrace others because yes, it’s just time to get real.
[LATHAN]
And that is the revival that we’re looking for.
[DAWN]
and that’s one of my pillars of my podcast, is authentic community, not just community, but authentic community where we can have hard conversations but in a loving way. So I don’t know if you’ve heard of Larry Krabb, Lathan?
[LATHAN]
Yes.
[DAWN]
He has some, he calls it out too, like I think the soul care or what’s the one book he wrote, I’m blanking right now, but it was about the church, like what if we all were this real, like messy. So I love that. Well, Nathan, I think we could probably do 10 episodes, but we are getting at the end of our time. Tell us, if people want to get ahold of you, where are you at, what are you doing? Tell us a little bit more how they can get in touch with you.
[LATHAN]
So I have a podcast called The Other Side of The Church, which if you are one of the sheep who your wound is church hurt, church is a space that tells stories of church hurt, but we don’t stay in that heap. We really believe in what the church can be if, what I talked about Dawn, if we were super transparent and real. So that’s the bond gas, but you want to know anything about me, lathancraft.com is the website. Everything, including the podcast is linked on there.
[DAWN]
I love that. Yes, I will definitely get on your podcast and start listening.
[LATHAN]
Next week we’re actually, next Monday at the time of this recording next Monday, I’m interviewing a lady who was sexually abused by clergy. She talks about prayer being traumatic. So I’m looking for, that’s the heart behind the podcast, those stories, which aren’t on the prayer request list a lot of the time. They’re kind of pushed under the lag to make sure everything else looks pretty.
[DAWN]
That’s a good example of knowing like what, how real your podcast is going to be. And I’ve just really appreciated our time together. I feel like you’re very genuine, but also a deep thinker and strong in your faith. It’s a good combination. I’ve really enjoyed our time today.
[LATHAN]
Dawn, you’re awesome. It’s been great.
[DAWN]
Thanks Lathan.

Thank you for listening today at Faith Fringes Podcast. If you want to explore more of your own faith journey, I offer my free eight-week email course called Spiritual Reflections, where you take a deeper dive into your own story included as a journaling workbook that has guided exercises. So if you want to explore more of what you were brought up to believe, or even look at where you may have been disillusioned or hurt, but yet still deep down you desire to authentically connect with God, then this course is for you. Just go to faithfringes.com to sign up.

Also, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email and tell me what’s on your mind. You can reach me at dawn@faithfringes.com.

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