[DAWN GABRIELS]
Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, host of Faith Fringes Podcast, recording live from Castle Rock Colorado, not only where I love to live, but I also work as the owner of a counseling center in the historic downtown. This podcast is a place to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. For those desiring deeper connection with God and engaging their spirituality in new ways, this will be a safe place to allow doubt, questions and curiosity, without judgment. We will be creating intentional space to listen in on other’s faith journeys, whether that is deconstruction or reconstruction, with the hope of traveling alongside you on your own spiritual path. If you’re interested in getting even more out of this podcast, grab my free email course Spiritual Reflections on my websitefaithfringes.com. Welcome to the podcast.

Welcome back spiritual explorers. I’m excited to be here today. I hope you’re having a good day. I am excited today to bring to you actually, one of my friends who I met just a year ago within the last year, and I was so blessed to meet her because she is such a genuine personality. I know you’re going to feel that when you hear her talk and I am so excited to have her on the podcast today. Her name is Gennifer Morley. She’s also a fellow therapist and she is the owner of North Boulder Counseling. For those of you who know Colorado, Boulder is only 50 minutes from where I live in Castle Rock.

She has a thriving group practice in Boulder, and she specializes in anxiety at all ages. She’s a licensed professional counselor and has spent her life outside and curious about the human experience. Gen’s goal in life is to promote freedom from anxiety and fear for as many people as possible. Gen has been called wildly disarming, and I would totally agree with that. She values connection, truth-telling and laughter. Gen is a triathlete, a mama and a risk-taker. Gen, welcome to the podcast.
[GENNIFER MORLEY]
Hey, Dawn. I’m so excited to be on and I love, oh, I just love you. I’m so excited we’re doing this and I get to be part of it. It’s just great. So thank you. As soon as you did this and put it out there, I’m telling you I had goosebumps because I think, we can go into, it’ll be part of what we talk about, but I think the world is so ready for some bigger conversations about this. So I’m so excited you’re the one doing it.
[DAWN]
Oh, I love that, Gen. And it’s so funny because people don’t know this, but you were one of the people that when I was dreaming about doing a podcast, you were actually at that retreat where I was headed one direction and you said, you were one of the people said, “Actually, I feel like you come alive, and I come alive, when you talk about spirituality and I feel like the world needs this.” That got me going and here we are, Faith Fringes, six months later.
[GEN]
Yes, oh my God, everything about it. Anyway, I’m so excited.
[DAWN]
So Gen, we were talking before and we have so many things we could talk about, but you started telling me an awesome story about where you grew up and kind of how your faith journey began and your spirituality. And I said, “Hey, wait, let’s get this, let’s record this.” So that’s where we’re going to start. Let’s jump in. Tell us a little bit about where you started on your spirituality.
[GEN]
Yes, that’s funny because, I grew up in Vermont and Vermont, particularly where I grew up, there are parts that are not, most of Vermont’s very liberal. Like Bernie Sanders is liberal. It’s like we’re Bernie Sanders liberal. So, super liberal. And I didn’t know this until I got, I think I was probably 30 and I started going to, I’ll go through a little bit more of my journey, but I started going to UU Church, Unitarian Universalist. I was really embarrassed to tell people I was going to church. Like, really? I was like, but it’s not like church church. I would like give all these caveats. I was really embarrassed and I realized that it turns out I have some interject. This is a nice therapy word, but it’s like a belief that I was given that I didn’t realize I got, like, no one said it out loud. But somehow I believed that people who went to church regularly and were really religious were silly. Like church was sort of for people who don’t believe in science.

When I first started feeling that feeling, I was like, hmm. And I thought, actually I asked my husband. I was like, “Do you believe that too?” And he was like, “No, what are you talking about?” He grew up in the Midwest and his family is a very Christian, not any religion, but like Christian, like everyone, we say prayers at every meal and stuff that like. I was like, oh gosh. So I grew up, I think I was telling you, I grew up Catholic, but like the kind of version of Catholic that I call it, it was Christmas, Easter saddle shoes and shame. Like that’s what our version of Catholicism was. My mom was really into it. So I was like, you know what? I was in fifth grade. I was always like this a little bit took things too seriously, part of why I’m a therapist now and is sort of a fun way.

I was like, okay, fifth grade CCD. My mom’s like you should get confirmed. So I started reading the Bible and the Bible starts with Genesis. Genesis, and from what I could tell as a fifth grader was pretty pejorative towards women. And I was just like, “Ew, I’m not doing this. I don’t get to be like a powerful figure. Only the boys get to be powerful figures? I don’t want this.” So, actually fun side story, I lied about going to CCD and went to my friend’s house down the block. And it was the first time in my life I ever got grounded. But then what ensued was a big conversation about that I didn’t feel like that religion fit me.
[DAWN]
I’m surprised. I’m just sitting here thinking, oh my gosh, fifth grade? That’s pretty young to have like that much opinion on even women being, the pejorative towards women and then this religion doesn’t fit me. I think that’s a deep conversation for a fifth grade.
[GEN]
Yes. You know, I think my mom was sort of caught off guard because she had probably done what normal fifth graders do. It’s either, you’re just like, it’s boring and I don’t want to go or you kind of go with it. And I think she went with it and was like, okay, this is what everyone’s doing and what they’re saying. And it seems nice and okay. Fine. So she was like, geez, if it’s that big of a deal, like … So in high school I ended up getting exposed through, you know I had one of those teachers, that’s like the high school teachers that’s really impactful and I got exposed to Buddhism and I really instantly, I was like, this is my religion.

I have, since then, I would say I’m Buddhist. Even when I’m going to the Unitarian Universalist church, that church welcomes all religions. It’s considered like a faith that has central tenets and doctrines, but it’s for anyone who is searching for truth and meaning. So you could even say you’re Christian or Jewish or Muslim or any religion and still come into our church, you’re very welcome. So in Buddhism there isn’t a lot of community. So like the Shambala Buddhism, that’s in Boulder, there’s a Shambala center, but it’s a very cerebral kind of religion. It’s very intellectual and it also, I just haven’t seen, there isn’t like community. So a big part of church for me is my church community.

So anyway, here we are, in this place in my life where in my thirties, I started going to UU. I practice Buddhism in terms of like, I meditate. Those are the doctrines that I think about. That’s like really how I find meaning and organize my life and actually more so two things. I’m saying finding meaning through Buddhism, but I also would say a huge part of where I find meaning is through the community at my church. I find meaning in my connection to those people and in our joined search for truth and meaning together.
[DAWN]
And you’re seeing that as separate Buddhism and community, you have to have both for you to really feel like you are participating?
[GEN]
Right. I’m sure somewhere there’s really joyous, beautiful Buddhist communities, but here, everywhere I’ve ever been, they’re pretty sober and they don’t have like the extroverted fun vibe I’m looking for.
[DAWN]
Which is you?
[GEN]
Yes. I’m like, okay, I like meditation. And we also like to hang out and laugh and have fun. So I’ve done like month long sojourns and week-long silent meditation retreats and a lot of stuff, but it’s a very different community. Like I’m here in Boulder, I need something. We had family come in last week and we have a regular sized car and we were like, “Oh, it’d be nice if we could all be in a car together.” I put out on Facebook, “Hey, can I get a car?” And three different people from my church pm-ed me, “We have a seven passenger vehicle you can just borrow.” So to me that feels held. So the church community, to me, I had to, a part of the reason I’m going into this is because it goes about faith, but also pushed up against my, I kind of don’t want to go to church because it’s embarrassing because I have to tell people I go to church.
[DAWN]
Yes, and you kind of had this narrative that like religion is dumb or for people who don’t think through things.
[GEN]
Right. It’s like, you might as well believe in unicorns and like floating teddy bears.
[DAWN]
Okay, but yet you were still drawn to something about religion and spirituality. You still felt a deeper longing pulling you in.
[GEN]
Right. I mean, it was like clearly of the fiber of my being. It wasn’t like a nice idea. It was like, this is me. I would like not tell people. It was like, “How do you know that person?” I’m like, “Well, like from this group.” I didn’t want to say church.
[DAWN]
Okay. Now, are you still like that or are you able talk —
[GEN]
No, no, no. I’m reclaiming church.
[DAWN]
When did that start happening?
[GEN]
That’s probably about five years ago or so. And I was, I mentioned to you, I’ve been really interested in what this is, because the thing about like, as a therapist, I think you know too, but we’ll just explain so people who don’t know can now, but it’s an interject. So it’s a belief that I got and I held as true without having any memory of anyone ever saying it and not knowing where it came from. So they’re very slippery. They’re sort of like, you can’t just dispel them necessarily because it’s as true as like the sky is blue. So I have to be like, I have to track this down because I know that this feels like when I say the words, I’m like, ew, gross.
[DAWN]
Yes. I call this false beliefs, false beliefs that you believe in so strongly that they’re true that until you have someone kind of push up against it, you’re like, “Oh, whoa, this is not true and when I say it out loud too, else, it sounds really bad.”
[GEN]
I mean, it’s ugly.
[DAWN]
Yes, but slippery is a great word to describe it because it’s hard to wrap your head around and hold it because it’s been part of your being.
[GEN]
Yes, it’s really fascinating. So there’s very intellectual, philosophical guy, Ken Wilber, who I’ve loved, studies consciousness and sort of just our perception of existence, lots of really amazing stuff. But he’s very, he likes to use incredibly long words. He’s so smart, but also, I’m not sure if he is actually arrogant, but it comes off a little that way just because it’s so wordy. But I love his stuff so I dig through it. He has a book that’s called The Marriage of Silence and Religion.
[DAWN]
Okay. Is that what you were telling me about?
[GEN]
Yes. So I’m actually listening to it because I don’t have time to like sit and read these days. So I listen to it like while I’m at the gym or I’m driving or whatever. And what he’s talking about in the book is this idea that at some point his theory, and I think this is accurate, but I’m just going to say it on his part because I haven’t researched it myself is that at one point early in more human development, religion kind of was everything. It was the umbrella. You can’t see me, but I’m waving my hands to make an umbrella. It was the umbrella over kind of everything and science was underneath that. And at some point science broke away and then at some point it broke away so much that it said, I’m not only not part of you, you are stupid and dumb. Anyone who believes in you couldn’t possibly believe in me.

And it creates this fundamental divide in humanity where, he purports that initially science attacked Christianity but partly because Christianity kind of said what science could be. It actually feels a little bit like the individualization of an adolescent. But anyway, [crosstalk] theory. So anyway, basically the idea is they’re two sides and you have to pick a side and we haven’t figured out how to integrate them. I think individuals often do that. Like any one of us can be like, yes, science is great. Also, I love my religion, but there is a definite, I think some of the divides in our country for sure are on this line.
[DAWN]
Okay, and you feel like a lot of people don’t mix them?
[GEN]
Well, they don’t. I don’t know that it’s like I think extremists of both. So it’s an extremist culture I’m talking about. And anything that becomes extremist I think is probably toxic. I would think this is the divide that somehow I ended up very squarely camped in the science side. My interject was like, we live here.
[DAWN]
Yes, there’s no place for religion in this side.
[GEN]
Right, there’s no place for religion over here. So any extremist point could say, we can’t have one and the other. Of course, as a rational human being, I can sit here and tell you, of course, you can have both. So what he also says is, and I’m referencing him, but I think I believe this too, which is actually science and religion are of the same thing. They have to be just because of the nature of reality. And the tenet in his book is that when we marry them, bring them together and allow each of, even the extremists to see how they need each other, so his premise is science gives us information. It gives us truth and religion gives us meaning, and we cannot live a full life without truth or without meaning. We literally can’t get through a life without meaning. And science has been so rich to keep us alive and to give us all these other things that we wouldn’t have like cars and airplanes and all these other things. So it’s giving us this like quantitative thing, but then without meaning, there was really not much you’re going to do with that.
[DAWN]
Yes. So at what point do you feel like you were able to say, I like both of these. I want to be in, I want to marry them. I want them to be together with, for me and my beliefs and how I live my life. Is that just since you started reading the book or do you feel like that’s been long ago?
[GEN]
Well, I think before I identified myself as a camper in the science side and a person who secretly thought church was like a dirty thing or like an embarrassing thing, as soon as I found Buddhism, I found Buddhism in high school. I was introduced to it. And I mean, I’m not like casually Buddhist. Like I’ve read the Buddhist doctrines. I’ve done a lot of Buddhist stuff. So I’ve actually like, if I look at it, I’m like, I’m very religious. Like Buddhism has many, many deities. There’s maybe thousands. There’s tons and tons of all these different Buddhas and different kinds of deities and there’s raffle gods and there’s kind gods and all these different gods. And of course, if you read that, literally it would be, because they’re, I mean, there’s drawings of them. They’re like monsters or like green people. So if you read that literally like, yes, that looks like a cartoon situation. Like it looks like you’re into cartoons.

So I think that I, as a human have always been very spiritual and then was actually just quite religious. So when I was a freshman in college and my mom died, the year my mom died, I meditated every single day for a year without any breaks. I never missed a day. I would go, and I don’t mean just sitting down for 10 minutes. I would set out a shrine. I hit a Buddhist shrine. I would do offerings of, there’s like pure flowers and fragrance and the purest water for drinking and the purest water bathing. It was like, there’s actually eight different things you set out and you make an offering. So you offer food or I would sing as an offering. Like you actually make a ceremony and then you meditate.
[DAWN]
Wow. And you did this every day for a year?
[GEN]
Every day for a year after my mom died. And I didn’t even, it was like a few months after she died, I started doing it. And then I just did it every day for a year.
[DAWN]
Wow. That’s kind of like, what’s the word, like an offering to your mom too, of kind of honoring her life and her passing into death as well as your religion kind of. Yes, that’s a beautiful thing to do for a year. Wow.
[GEN]
I didn’t plan to do it. And I think part of the offering too, was an offering into the space that was there. There’s this space when people die, I think that, it’s the same space that makes you feel kind of numb and that you can’t think and you’re floating through your life. It’s like the ether is opened and there is just this huge hole. And it was like, I was just sitting down in front of the space that was where I was and what had happened and I was just sitting there with it and almost like paying, like, I honor this space. I don’t get it. It hurts. I had all these things, but I get that. It’s powerful and I’m going to make space for it.
[DAWN]
Wow. Again, I’m just shocked at your depth, at your age that you’re telling me these stories, because I used to work at universities with freshmen and not many would do that. I mean, even just with grief, a lot of people as you know just run from it. But you were like, I’m going to sit in it and not only sit in it, I’m going to honor this space. Like that’s huge.
[GEN]
Yes. I ran for it. I actually was like, this is like a lot. I want this.
[DAWN]
Wow, okay.
[GEN]
So, I mean, that’s really religious.
[DAWN]
It is. I would say it’s the meaning, like what you said, if it’s meaning in your life and you found, and it’s outside of ourselves, it’s like a deeper meaning that’s bigger than us. I think some of that is religion, as well, like it has to be more than what we’re experiencing right now.
[GEN]
Yes. It was, it’s interesting to me I think in every religion. I also, I was a nanny for a, not a Buddhist for a rabbi when I was in undergrad. So just shortly after my mom passed away, I moved to a different state and different schools, like the year after this and I was a nanny there for the last three years of undergrad. So I worked, was with this rabbi five days a week with his kid. And I asked him one day I was like, “Judaism looks amazing. Tell me about it.” And he’s like, “You know what? Most people are not in religion because they’re doctrine. They’re in the religion because it’s a culture and a community that they feel valued and that’s important to them. That’s something bigger than that and they like the rituals and there’s just thing that like continuity and stability.” And I was just sort of like at the point, at the time, I was like, “Well, that’s not the answer I want.”

So for me in Buddhism, I think the doctrine is like, I really liked some of it. Some of it is actually just as scary. So there’s actually realms of hell in Buddhism. There’s not just one hell. There’s all these different kinds of hell, depending on your karma. Like basically what you sort of missed and like what you got wrong, essentially, if we’re going to just go black and white. So like, there’s one for like greed. I’m going to describe this to you because I think people glorified Buddhism in a way that I saw Christianity glorified when I was in Nepal, so which is Buddhist. So we can go back to that in a minute. So this realm of hell you have is for desirous attachment. It’s called, which is like greed. There’s a tree of razors that you climb up for your entire life, because at the top is the thing you desire most and you’re willing to climb the razors, but every time you get to the top and you go to reach for it, the thing disappears and then you slide down the razors into a pool of vinegar and then it all starts all over again.
[DAWN]
Well, that definitely sounds like hell. Oh my gosh.
[GEN]
But also it’s like a metaphor. Like all religions, like some of us are really just living through that in our life. We want this thing and we’re killing ourselves to get it and we think it’s going to make us happy. And right when we get it, we’re like, “Oh, it’s not what I thought it was.” It’s like vapor.
[DAWN]
Yes. I think —
[GEN]
And then suffering ensues at that moment.
[DAWN]
So true. I think you could even put the actual idea of happiness at the top of that tree, because —
[GEN]
Oh, Dawn, I like that one.
[DAWN]
That’s what I see is people think X, Y, Z will make me happy and I’m climbing this happiness tree. But when I get there, it’s disappears because it’s not true. Okay, keep going, Jen. Keep going.
[GEN]
So this is interesting because I really, really probably, like some cultural preparation happened and that was like, I was like, Buddhism is like a smarter religion than Christianity,, like it’s like for smart people. I think that when I was in high school, I had kind of this idea. It was like more intellectual. But two things, one Thich Nhat Hanh, who is a zen master, he’s such a gentle, amazing man, he said, if you cannot find enlightenment in the religion you were born in, you will never find enlightenment.
[DAWN]
Ooh, that’s powerful. So say it again, one more time.
[GEN]
If you cannot find enlightenment in the religion you were born in, you will never find enlightenment.
[DAWN]
So it’s almost like he’s saying it’s not about the religion.
[GEN]
It’s not the finger, it’s the moon. [crosstalk]. So they’re saying people get confused. Religion is the finger pointing to the moon. The point is the moon. The religion is just pointing you in the direction. Ultimately what we’re trying to do is see the moon. So Thich Nhat Hanh is sort of saying like, if you get all confused about like, oh, this finger is the wrong finger or whatever, you’ll just miss that. Like, ultimately everyone’s just trying to point at the moon.

Wow. That’s powerful.
[GEN]
I read this, all of this whole thing and I was like, “Oh damn, I feel like I just got called out.” So you can’t get into Christianity and find the same kind of light enlightenment you’re looking for. Whatever we want to call it, maybe a different word, but the thing you’re looking for is everywhere. So either you can find it or you can’t.
[DAWN]
So yes. You were saying you felt like Buddhism was more intelligent than Christianity, but it sounded like you were going somewhere with that as well. Did you feel like you explored Christianity too and have some thoughts about?
[GEN]
Thanks for keeping me on track.
[DAWN]
That’s okay. That’s my job.
[GEN]
So the thing I was thinking about is, so I went to Nepal as a senior in undergrad thinking like, oh, like home of Buddhism, this is going to be so amazing. Plus I’m a huge backpacker hiker, like outdoors. I’m like, “Mt. Everest, here I come.”
[DAWN]
Did you do Mt. Everest?
[GEN]
No, I only hiked just like a place that’s like one of the first stops on the way to base camp. And it’s the first place you can see the range of Mount Everest.
[DAWN]
That’s still cool, Gen.
[GEN]
It was amazing. I also got really sick, because it was not hygienic. Anyway, this was 20 years ago. So it might be different now. But when I was there, like the sort of people who were elite or better than, or wanted to be better in Buddhism, they weren’t Buddhist. They were Christians.
[DAWN]
Oh, interesting.
[GEN]
They would leave the Buddhist religion because it was like, not as good. Like they wanted to be more Western.
[DAWN]
Oh, okay.
[GEN]
It’s more modern.
[DAWN]
I guess it’s not even about religion at that point. Let’s go back to the razor tree. I’m obsessed with this analogy now.
[GEN]
Right, right. Well, I’ll tell you a funny story though. I was in Nepal and I was like meditating doing all this stuff, having a lot of experience that could be its own show. So in that, in that culture, Buddhist families send usually their youngest son or sometimes their oldest son, it kind of depends to go to be a monk. One kid goes like to a monk school, a boarding school. So they’re sent away to become monks and it’s like a auspicious for the whole family. So I’m walking through Katmandu and there’s a dump truck, like a proper dump truck full of monk children. So there are all these boys with their heads shaved and in saffron robes. So the red robes are their color of learning and the golden robes are the color of wisdom. So like the Dalai Lama wears gold but then like the young monks only wear the saffron red ones. So they’re all wearing their little reds and I’m like, “Oh, so precious.” I’m like, “Oh my God. Look at all those monks. That’s so amazing.” And then this kid turns around and puts his hand out and gives me the middle finger. It is maybe one of my favorite moments of all time.
[DAWN]
He’s still a little boy. And now you understand even more with your little guy. I know he’s too young to give you the middle finger.
[GEN]
Well, he does have some traits he’s picked up from mama though. I’m like, Jesus Christ. I’m like, God, don’t say that’s from your grandma. So my husband’s mom’s super, super religious. So the reason I share that story though, is kind of all circling back to like, if you can’t find, like we’ve made religion into this thing, like there’s this religion or that religion or whatever. They all have the same function. Like we’re humans inside of this whole religion situation. So like that, I was thinking like, oh, if those children are Buddhist and they’re being raised as monks or whatever, they’re going to be really like profound and deep and all these things. Like, no, it’s a person on a life journey.
[DAWN]
Yes. Choose, and they were born into this religion or for some people you’re choosing a religion, but you’re still a human and we still have to go through this human experience trying to figure out what religion is to us. Yes, kind of like bringing, it’s so fascinating, because I grew up, as most people at my listeners know conservative Christian and I even studied it a lot and have a degree in theology and just kind of the whole term deconstruction and reconstruction of faith. But I realized, to me it was more deconstruction of religion and I look at my faith in God as different almost, which is funny, because you’re kind of saying it’s, you’re using religion a little bit differently than I do. Because I see that sometimes religion and what people have made choices, like you have to do one to a hundred things and then that makes you this religion where I’m like, I feel like spiritually, you can connect to God without a religion. I’m just curious what you think about that because, well, I guess again, it probably depends on your definition of God. So it’s just interesting. I’m loving hearing you talk because the word religion brings up stuff for me too.
[GEN]
Yes. That’s interesting because I also try not to use the word God, because I will think of a big man in the sky. And why I don’t want it to be a man? That is not okay.
[DAWN]
You don’t like that.
[GEN]
I also don’t think it should be a human. So personally I don’t think it should be a human. That’s why in Buddhism that these characters are really, it’s very hard to humanize them because they’re like rainbow colors. Like it’s not a person. So they’re clearly a metaphor, at least to me how I see them. But I like the idea that being a man makes me so sad, but here’s the other thing, I love Oprah Winfrey. She is like my, I don’t even know what to call it, she’s like my totem or whatever. She’s amazing. So she is deeply religious and talks about God a lot. And she has, because she does, I respect her so deeply.

I started thinking about like, if you take the word, God, like the word, the way I learned it, growing up, I just felt excluded. It’s like this boy club and I’m not in it. And I’m like, I’m not doing anything where I’m not like, can be one of the main members of the club. Like that’s clearly a club that wasn’t for me.
[DAWN]
When people use the word God or?
[GEN]
When God as a man.
[DAWN]
Got it. Okay. Interesting.
[GEN]
So she uses it. She definitely says God, and I think she’ll even say he, but then there’s a way in which both she and Maya Angelou, when they, I listened to their podcast, her podcast, Who Am I? She loved Maya so much. So she’s on a lot of her podcasts. And they both talked about it in this way that it much more felt like, I’ve actually thought about this a lot. I’m in my forties now and I just think about the meaning of life, even in a richer way that like, there’s like this, they talk about it as like the essence that’s in all things, but then also it loves you like. So I’m trying to even figure out what God is. Like, how can I use the word?
[DAWN]
Yes, you’re still exploring.
[GEN]
I feel really clear that like sometimes we’re just in line with like probably what most people would call God. And it’s like, the essence of existence. It’s like literally what presses a flower open and all of the motion and life and everything.
[DAWN]
Okay. So you see it, okay, fascinating. I love it. That’s obviously like how, you’ve grown, your journey of spirituality. That’s where you’re at right now. So this is, I love, I knew this was going to be a great time to talk because I knew you had some different beliefs and ideas than I have, and it was just so interesting to hear how you came to that. Anything else you want to say? I know we’re getting close to our time, but anything else you want to say about science and religion, how you’re kind of integrating that now, like both, it sounds like you have lived that way, but now this book you’re reading kind of gave you more words to put to it.
[GEN]
Yes. I don’t think I have a lot to say about it. I will say, my husband is a scientist. He has a PhD. He’s a scientist. He actually works for the federal government doing research. So it’s interesting because he grew up super, super Catholic. Like his mom has like very, I don’t think it’s Catholic. It’s Christian. I think she considers herself like even more Christian than Catholic. So she has rules like if you are naked after you’re two years old, that’s a sin, unless you’re bathing. Like it’s very, there’s rules. I’ll go to her and I’m like, “So what if you’re two years old in one day?” She was like, “Well, that’s okay.”
[DAWN]
Do you get along with them?
[GEN]
I can get along with her if we can talk about, because she’s also very loving and loves her family. So we have a lot of overlap where we can get along. And she, I know that she makes a very strong effort to give us some space as parents, even when she, like she would like our child to be raised in her beliefs. And that’s not what’s going to happen, but she is very gracious, relative to the extent to what she believes this. So I’m weighing what I think she believes about the world and how much grace she’s giving us. And I think it’s very generous. It’s also savvy because if she is not supportive, we’re probably not going to give her as much time with our grandson because it will be hard to be around her. So she’s aware of that too well.
[DAWN]
Well, and think a lot of people are like that with their beliefs and religion. And I think Gen, one of the things that is awesome about you is that you are so open and welcoming and loving. Even you being willing to talk about all these things and you are very aware of all these different religions and it’s just great to have a conversation with you about it because it’s just easy. You’re not going to be dogmatic and freak out on somebody when they want to talk about this. Well, what would you say, in kind of closing, if someone wants to kind of look at their religion and kind of dive into it more? Do you have any tips or steps on how to kind of either deconstructed or reconstruct it, anything at all, as you’re thinking about how you did it, that might be able to help them on their journey?
[GEN]
Well, first I want to say that I think religion is one of the most gracious, merciful things a human can have in a human life. I think a human life is too hard if you don’t have something to believe in.
[DAWN]
Oh yes.
[GEN]
It’s actually, when I work with clients, one of the things I will work with them, I work with a lot of clients who are not religious at all and so I work with them to find meaning. And religion is a way that is, it’s a really elegant and a way we get to find meaning with other people. It’s really, the word merciful really feels on point to me. Like it’s mercy inside of some of the hardest things in life. So I kind of wish for everyone to have some meaning. And if that’s religion, I rejoice at anyone who is able to find meaning in their life. So now at this point, when someone tells me they’re religious, I rejoice for them because I know that they likely have mercy in their life because of that.
[DAWN]
Oh, that’s beautiful, Gen. That really is, especially right now where we’re at. We’ve all been through a rough year. I don’t know when people are listening to this, but we came through COVID and a ton of stuff in our nation that has happened politically and race and all this stuff. It’s been such a hard year. So that’s beautiful to hear that religion can be merciful because I think some people have not experienced that, but it’s true. It’s funny because I would use the term spirituality. They’re like, it’s because it’s true, it’s not the to-do list. It’s the true grounding of yourself on something bigger than you deeper and with meaning. And I just love that.
[GEN]
I think that segues into your last question, which is like the tip that I would have, or the inquiry that I would invite people to. I actually just talked about this with a client yesterday. This idea that realizing like we deserve that essence, we deserve the mercy. And I think there’s people who have religion and they don’t have it as a gentle merciful gift to themselves. They have it as an obligation.
[DAWN]
Yes, so true. It’s a different paradigm shift when you think of it, those two.
[GEN]
Yes. So that’s the piece. It’s like, whenever anyone’s looking for any meaning or structure or religion or whatever is starting to first being able to sit with yourself as a soft supple being that needs compassion and love and people. It’s like really divinely, vulnerable in kind toward yourself, to find meaning and be willing to have meaning even in the face of doubt.
[DAWN]
Oh, that’s beautiful. I love that. I love the way you say things. I love the way you said that. I hope people can really soak that in and just really feel that today.
[GEN]
Yes, me too. There’s some really amazing things happening and they have like, I think many of them have equal shadow sides. So we’re just voting for the light. Sometimes we need the dark too. That’s a whole nother episode.
[DAWN]
Oh yes. I agree. Well, that’s one of my pillars; pain gets us sometimes to the light. You can’t have one without the other. They’re right there, the same, the dark side —
[GEN]
I love that that’s a pillar.
[DAWN]
It is.
[GEN]
I have been trying to tell people for 10 years.
[DAWN]
How’s that working? So in closing, I have to ask this because you’re from Boulder, which is one of the best hiking places in the nation, if not the world. What are some great trails? If someone is visiting Boulder, Colorado where can they go to hike and maybe have a transformational trail moment?

Okay, I’m going to give you two choices. One is like beautiful lush, gentle three miles round trip, kind of flattish. That’s Anne U. White. If you Google Anne U. White Trail, Boulder, it will come up. It’s absolutely amazing. It falls a creek inside of like kind of a canyon. So there’s walls up on the edge, but there’s really lush, which is not most of this part of the country because it’s so arid. It is just a gentle, a great trail. I take my son there. It’s really a sweet little family hike.
[DAWN]
That’s what I was just going to say, it sounds like a great hike for kids.
[GEN]
Yes, but then they like kick my butt, like feel God for the pain of my quads. That is Bear Peak, but not the front way. There’s a back way. There’s the Western side. Bear Peak is the high peak in Boulder, the big one that you see, but the front side is rock stairs all the way up and down, which I can’t do and won’t do. If you go up Flagstaff Mountain, there’s a way you can come up from the back. And it’s much longer. It’s like eight miles, but it’s all rolling and quiet and there’s much less people. So that’s the way, the west entrance to Bear Peak.
[DAWN]
So if you’re not a triathlete, can I still do that? Can I do that in a day?
[GEN]
You could. If you want to do that, I have taken my girlfriend who loves hiking, but maybe hikes three times a year. I’ve taken her up there, but like being a picnic, like it’s going to take a while. It’s just as a day hike and bring all the stuff you need. I’ll bring like a little windbreaker too, because it’s going to be windy on the top probably. But you can do it. It’s what I love to do by myself because it’s so long that you can get your soul to settle before you get out of the woods again.
[DAWN]
Oh, well, that’s going to go right on my list for the summer. Thank you, Gen. This was so great spending time with you and just getting to learn more about your heart and what you think. I just loved it. Thank you so much for your time.
[GEN]
Thank you. And thank you for doing this work Dawn. I really think it’s not for the faint of heart. And I remember when you were talking about this before it all started and I thought that seems like it might be scary to do. And you might’ve had that vibe too, and you are stepping into it. And that is like one of my favorite experiences of being a human when you’re afraid of something and you step into it, and you do it for the whole world to get this.
[DAWN]
Thanks, Gen. I’m glad you’re part of this too now.
[GEN]
Okay, take care, Dawn.
[DAWN]
Take care. Bye.

Thank you for listening today at Faith Fringes Podcast. If you want to explore more of your own faith journey, I offer my free eight-week email course called Spiritual Reflections, where you take a deeper dive into your own story included as a journaling workbook that has guided exercises. So if you want to explore more of what you were brought up to believe, or even look at where you may have been disillusioned or hurt, but yet still deep down you desire to authentically connect with God, then this course is for you. Just go to faithfringes.com to sign up.

Also, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email and tell me what’s on your mind. You can reach me at dawn@faithfringes.com.

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