[DAWN GABRIEL]
Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, your host of Faith Fringes Podcast, recording live from Castle Rock, Colorado. I am a licensed professional counselor, owner of a counseling center and a sacred space holder for fellow therapists. This podcast is those who want to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. I create intentional space to explore your own spiritual path, a space that allows doubt questions and curiosity without the judgment or shame; a place to hear another story and dive deeper into how to have a genuine connection with God.

For my fellow therapist listening, I will often pull back the curtain of our layered inner world that comes with our profession. I bring an authentic and experienced way to engage your spiritual journey in order to connect you with your deepest values for true renewal and soul care. But really this podcast is for anyone listening who’s desiring a deeper and genuine connection with God. For those of you wanting to engage your spirituality in new ways, Faith Fringes is for you. Welcome to the podcast.

Hello, welcome back to Faith Fringes. This is Dawn Gabriel, your host. I hope you’re finding some new ways to connect with God and your spirituality while you are listening to these podcast episodes. That’s my hope for you and I’m so excited you have chosen to listen in. If you are a local in Castle Rock and would love to experience what a soul care day is like, I’m actually off a short half-day soul care on March 4th from 10:00 AM to 2:00 PM and it’s actually going to be in my home. I am going to ask that you set up a phone call with me just so I can make sure you know what you’re getting into and I’ll explain a little bit of what to expect.

Because it’s in my home, I just want to touch base. So if you are interested, the soul care day is going to be a space where an intentional slowing down to connect with yourself, to let go of some things in your head and to connect with God. So you’ll come in and we will have quiet music going, I’ll have some oils, diffusing and it’ll just be a peaceful place at my home. I have space for people to spread out. I’m going to keep it to just about six, probably six to eight women and we’re going to start off with a group exercise that I’ll lead like a spiritual direction exercise.

We’ll talk about it and then you’ll have solo time to connect on your own. Whether you want to journal, stretch, take a nap. Sometimes napping can be spiritual and whatever you need to do, read, or just sit there and think I want to provide that space. I look at myself as a sacred space holder or a facilitator to create connection, a space for you to create connection with God. So that’s what I want to do at my home, just offer a soul care day, just a little taste. Again, if you are local, reach out to me, dawn@faithfringes.com and get some more info.

I also have it posted on my social media and it is going to be yes, coming up March 4th, 2022, in case you’re listening this later. I’ll also have some more soul care days at my house. So feel free to check the website. I’ll be posting them there. I also will be including lunch. We’ll have lunch together and another group spiritual direction, and then you’ll have some more solo time. So it’s a mixture of good downtime and solo time and some also group connection around our spirituality.

Actually today, my guest that I’m going to be interviewing is actually one of my soul care for therapist retreat attendees. So as I’ve been talking about my soul care retreats for therapists and the person that I’m interviewing today, he actually came and attended my very first one. He talks about that on here today. You’ll hear about it, but more importantly, he talks about how he is in leadership in his church, and he is questioning his faith and I just admire his bravery and his courage to do this, but also his genuineness. He’s really genuine and curious about it and in a respectful way. So I think you’ll hear that too, as I talk to Nate.

Let me tell you a little bit about Nate. Nate is a psychologist and he’s a certified group psychotherapist who helps healing professionals. He facilitates online process groups for therapists from all over the world. He leads group therapy conferences, weekend group intensives and retreat programs for therapists. So I am so excited to have you listen in on my interview with Dr. Nate Page. Welcome to the podcast, Nate.
[DR. NATE PAGE]
Thank you for having me. I’m super excited to be here.
[DAWN]
So why don’t you start by telling my listeners just a little bit about you?
[PAGE]
Yes. So well, professionally, I’m a therapist, a psychologist and work in private practice and I’m starting a group practice. We have two clinicians hired, but my main passion is group therapy. So I’m a certified group psychotherapist and love doing group therapy. In the last three to four years, I’ve started doing a lot more work with therapists. They want to be members of groups. So I do a lot of online process training groups for therapists. That’s my passion right now. Personally, I’m married and have four children age two as of a couple days ago, all the way up to age nine.

Then my spiritual positionality, I identify as an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So Mormons were frequently known as, but the church, isn’t the Mormon church. It’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and currently serving in a volunteer or voluntold position as a Bishop. So in charge of the local congregation of about a hundred or so active members from all the towns and the area down here in Minnesota. That’s a brief intro of me and where I come from.
[DAWN]
Thank you. Even with that brief intro, I was like, oh my gosh, I have 500 questions. Well, I’ll be —
[PAGE]
It will be a long podcast.
[DAWN]
Totally. I was like, okay, Dawn, save the ones about group therapy for therapists for a different episode. Because that’s one of my passions, working with therapists yes in soul care. So I feel like we probably have a lot of similar heart for therapists. So tell me, actually that’s how we met. For my listeners, we met, we were both presenting at Practice of the Practice Killin’It Camp and Nate presented on running a group therapy for therapist. I think you?
[PAGE]
That was one of them.
[DAWN]
Yes. That’s how we met. Then Nate, why don’t you tell them a little bit about how we met in person?
[PAGE]
So at the conference, Killin’It Camp, you presented on soul care, Dawn and it was a fantastic presentation. I presented the next day on burnout and I stole some of your slides because they were so good. I got my phone out and I took pictures of my computer screen when you were presenting. Then it was fun the next day for people to recognize and say, oh, that was from Dawn’s presentation. But yes, I loved your talk about soul care and that got me, I mean, I liked you as well. So then I went to the retreat that you put on and it was your first ever soul care retreat. We met in person and I loved to talk about that as much as we would want to today. I had a really, really meaningful experience doing that with you.
[DAWN]
Thank you. So both of us were presenting and we realized we have some similar things with burnout and soul care. Tell me why did the soul care grab you so much? Why did that stand out?
[PAGE]
The two things that come to mind, one is in my work with burnout and knowing the research on burnout a lot of people, even in the research talk about burnout as an erosion to your soul. So it’s actually more than just being tired. It’s an injury. So that’s something that it resonated with me for a long time before even hearing your presentation. So that notion of, and self-care usually doesn’t do the trick with burnout. So that really resonated with me even before meeting you and listening to your presentation. You were getting at, I think, a little deeper, the injuries that can happen to us.

So that was one of the first things. Then when I heard your presentation and then I checked you out afterward with the Faith Fringes podcast and just that you had, oops, I’m pulling up my phone here to read it, but your description is that podcast is for anyone who has, or currently is questioning their kid connection with God or maybe wondering if what you believe is true or asking if God can let bad things happen to good people. That really rang true for me personally. I was really drawn to you and because growing up in my culture, at least LDS doctrine provides a lot of space for doubt.

That’s actually a really important piece of LDS doctrine, forever wanted to have that journey, but LDS culture and with my family and the people that I was around, I didn’t feel like I had that space. I felt like there was a lot of pressure that now I had to say that I believed and I had to believe in God in this type of way. If I didn’t, then that would be pretty anxiety provoking for the people around me and then for me as well. So I think that’s something in the last few years that I’ve been connecting more to, well, what do I really believe? Not what has been, maybe handed to me or people unintentionally putting pressure on me to just conform or say that I believe something that maybe I haven’t yet figured out for myself. So that really got me sucked in for you and the work that you’re doing and this space that you’re providing, which hopefully a lot of people have that in the world, but at least for me, I didn’t feel like I had that growing up.
[DAWN]
Yes, I don’t think a lot of people have that space, at least I didn’t either. I don’t think I realized that what you said, the LDS doctrine does allow for doubt, but the culture might not. Can you say more about how that isn’t working together?
[PAGE]
Yes. Well, our church is founded on the story, I guess you could say of Joseph Smith who was questioning like which church should I join? In the Bible in James 1:5, it says that God will give you the answer. If you’re doubting ask God and he’ll help you. So he went and I mean, he was thinking about that for quite a bit, but then he went and really prayed and then through that journey learned the truth for himself. Then of course that started the LDS church and what we describe as the restoration of the church. So, I mean that in and of itself is really important. I think each of us need to go through that experience of well yes. What do I really believe? Can I bring those questions to God and wrestle?

So in so many like Sunday school classes and talk from the pulpit and articles and even in the scriptures themselves, there’s a lot of space for how doubt is I think just an important part of the human journey. But culturally, I think, I remember like there’s this notion growing up of no empty chairs, which is a phrase that would come up a lot in my family and people around me, which was the idea that, oh, when you get to heaven, we don’t want to have any empty chairs. So if anyone from the family or any friends or anything fell by the wayside or stopped believing, or maybe let a life of sin or something, they wouldn’t be in those chairs.

So there’s a lot of, I think well-intentioned pressure in that way, that there was no option to not do the provided path for you. But that’s not a doctrinal thing. In fact, there’s nowhere that, our doctrine is pretty inclusive and welcoming. I think there’s chances for any person, no matter what life they led to really be there in one of those chairs in heaven, so to speak. So it was just an interesting clash, I think, between culture and doctrine.
[DAWN]
It sounds very similar. Like I’m resonating with a lot of what you said, even though I didn’t grow up in LDS. But just how, but I think, I didn’t realize that doubt was allowed till I was older in life. Because it wasn’t talked about in the culture, but like you said, reading the scripture and really looking at who God is and who He says He is, He completely lets doubt and wants your faith to be your own. So once I realized that to me, I started deconstructing, but I realized it was more of the church that I was deconstructing, not God. So I’m curious, do you, when you’re sitting here, you said you’re bringing up stuff now questioning, is it more like the LDS faith or is it more God? Is it both? Where are you at today?
[PAGE]
Good question. I think it’s both for me. Maybe, I mean, I think developmentally it is really important. It was for me to really belong to something to conform. I think we all do that as human beings. So I actually, I really value my experience and my experiences being able to really say from the pulpit or say, like bear testimony and say, I really believe this. I felt it too. So I confirmed that belief in a lot of ways. So I think from a developmental perspective I’m more in the place now, or I actually feel, it feels more congruent to be able to question and to be able to really, really see what do I believe, which I’ve been hearing all along that I should be doing that.

Most members of the LDS church have their story of how they found to believe in the impressions that were left on them from the spirit. So I think, yes, and where I’m at is in the last few years wanting to go back to ground zero. So I’ve even like, well, what about God? Like, I want to really have a feel congruent in that because I think I was feeling incongruent saying, oh, I believe that it’s true. But then when I would try on the, maybe the atheist hat or something and say, well maybe there isn’t anything, maybe this life is it, and there’s nothing after it or there isn’t a big creator. I got more comfortable that I could actually explore that within myself and yes, maybe that’s real, but that doesn’t really feel congruent.

So what has felt congruent the last couple of years is to just be able to say that I really don’t know, which I think is probably true for most human beings and that’s what faith is and belief. But I think what’s been really healing and helpful for me is to shut off some of that pressure or, I mean, other people’s testimony, so to speak, other people’s faith. At least the, well, I remember when I was in first grade, my mom had wanted me and then my older sister who’s a year and a half older to really be praying and figuring out like, is this the true church and to do it like Joseph Smith did.

I can’t remember if I spent two days doing that or two weeks, but I remember it was something I was trying to do. I remember I was outside throwing a ball up and down and I went in after that and I told my mom that, oh, no, I received the spiritual impression that, oh, the church is true. Thinking back on that, I don’t really know what I experienced, but one thing that I do really believe is that I knew how happy that would make my mom. She was. She was ecstatic and it was a really a big deal. So I felt all of those emotions that, oh, mom likes this and this is what I’m supposed to say. It wasn’t a matter of if I would believe it. It was more the matter when, and so going in and telling her was and so it turned the, it brought me into the fold in that way.

She shared it with a lot of people and it was a big deal for her. So I think the public, so I think there’s like those experiences. I’m really trying to figure out, well, how much of that is just me and my personality that I tend to conform to things I don’t rebel. There’s a lot of good to that I think but then how do I really, now that I’m 38 years old, how do I really step into myself and what I believe? So I think a lot of me questioning God and questioning the church and other things like that, it’s been healthy to do.

But I don’t know that a lot of people would think that from the outside, if they were to hear me say these things and we’ll see what people say, that my friends or family or other members that listen to this podcast. Because I think it, I’m assuming that there might be concern or hurt feelings or people might feel betrayed or think, oh, you’re doing something wrong Nate or, oh, we had no idea or Nate, you just need to go back to where you were.
[DAWN]
Don’t rock the boat.
[PAGE]
Yes.
[DAWN]
Hi there. It’s me, Dawn. I just wanted to take a moment and say that if you’ve been listening to something today and you feel maybe nudged to go deeper into your faith journey, I offer a free eight-week email course called Spiritual Reflections. I promise it’s only one email week. It’s a short exercise and a short email and included is a journaling workbook that has guided exercises that will help you explore more of what you were brought up to believe. Even if you’ve been disillusioned or hurt on your faith journey yet still deep down, you’re desiring to authentically connect with God and you can feel that then this course is for you. Just go to faithfringes.com to sign up for your free Spiritual Reflections course today.
[DAWN GABRIEL]
So are you saying, have you had a chance to talk to any of your family members or friends about this?
[PAGE]
My spouse has been wonderful. It was a little bit difficult a couple years coming out and starting to say some of these things, but she has been absolutely phenomenal. She has her own journey. Aside from that, not really at the retreat with you I did, that was really meaningful for me. I remember if probably about six or seven years ago, I told my mom that I don’t think it is that big of a deal if people leave the church and doctrinally, it’s not. I mean, it really isn’t that big of a deal, but, and I don’t know exactly what happened, but it was really hard for her.

There were a couple days where she couldn’t really talk to me or say anything. So but she worked through it and I mean, it hasn’t been an issue, but that was an example of whoa, that was really, that really rocked the boat. So I haven’t and yes, I’m curious who will listen to this podcast, and I feel very good. I was thinking about this a lot beforehand and I just feel like, no, I want to be very open and honest. And I’m excited and curious if other people in the church or my family listen to this and what rocking the boat that will do.
[DAWN]
I know, because when we were leaving the retreat, I remember asking like, “Nate, are you sure you want to come on the podcast and talk about this? What if it gets out?” You’re like, “I’m ready for it.” It sounds like you’re more wanting to talk about it and this might be an avenue to open up and talk about it with people if they listen. I think the thing that strikes me about you that has been different, because, the whole last year I’ve been doing this podcast, I come across people and they’re in the middle of their deconstruction, but some people go like way off to another side.

And there’s a lot of, not that anger’s bad, but it’s just more like a pendulum swing. But what I’m hearing with you is that you’re still grounded in who you are and you’re feeling comfortable with this questioning. Like you don’t have, I don’t know, maybe you’re allowed to go extreme if you want, but I just feel like an honest and respectful way that you’re doing it and you’re thinking and you’re looking at doctrine and you’re looking at all avenues. I just really appreciate how you’re doing it.
[PAGE]
I like what you’re saying too, that there’s value for folks that do swing the pendulum. I think my spouse is, I mean, we’d have to ask her, but I think she was more on that end possibly.
[DAWN]
Yes, a lot of people.
[PAGE]
So my rebellion is getting on a Faith Fringes podcast and talking about things. That’s my pendulum swing.
[DAWN]
Well, and another thing I was thinking that I want to go back to and that really struck me when you were talking was when you were in first grade that, you said, how did you say it about the impression? How do you guys say that?
[PAGE]
Impression, spiritual impression.
[DAWN]
So I’m sure in your kid’s ages from two to nine, do you have a first grader in there?
[PAGE]
Yes.
[DAWN]
Or around there? I have a kindergartner, so I was just imagining my kindergartner one year older and I was like, is he capable of really comprehending a church, the whole church, like to understand what that means, to understand the doctrine, all this stuff? Or as, I’m reading this book called Spiritual Conversations with Children and it’s phenomenal, because it talks about how do kids experience God it’s very different than adults. So it just got me curious of, is a six or seven year old really capable of making that decision for the rest of their life or is it more about the culture and the family then? So I just, I don’t know. That just is what came up when you’re talking.
[PAGE]
That’s fascinating. What book is that?
[DAWN]
Spiritual Conversations with Children. I can’t remember who it’s by. I can send it to you later or I can put it in the show notes as well, but it was this woman who spent years actually working, I think at a shelter for women and children. She had children come in and do a listening circle and she’d have a one on one come in and she created this beautiful space for them. They would just listen and see if they could hear anything God said to them. A lot of times for children, it was in, it was very, it looked very different. Like it was in nature or it was in this toy, they picked up and it reminded them of something. It was just very experiential. I think in as adults, we get too much in our heads. You have to decide on this doctrine. Well kids don’t really, that makes no sense to them. They’re about play. So yes, it’s just curious, makes me really curious.
[PAGE]
Yes. Well, and as you’re talking, I am thinking about my kids and I think we, at least compared to me, I’ve heard them say so many more things like, well, does this God really exist? Or is it like a Santa Claus type thing? So hopefully, fingers crossed, they have enough space to play like that and to try on different things and really, but they do seem to feel the spirit and to, I mean, have really profound experiences. Our daughter actually has a podcast. I think they’ve done seven episodes now. She talks with my spouse about, scriptures as a Puzzle is the name of it.
[DAWN]
I love that. Oh my gosh. That’s so cool.
[PAGE]
Because I listen podcast, like you and Joe Sanok, and other people in the car, I’ve done that for years, so she’s always in there listening. So now that she gets to talk, she loves it. But it’s so fun to hear her and like, oh my goodness, you’re thinking about that? That’s the connections you made? Wow.
[DAWN]
I know. I think that’s so cool to give space, to allow the children to, however, I remember one time I did a prayer labyrinth with my youngest and this was like two years ago. He was three. I said, just walk in here, it’s like a maze and just ask God, if he has anything to say to you. It could be a word. It could be anything at all. So we walked in and then we walked out of the labyrinth. I said, “Did you hear anything?” He said, “Yes, God told me responsibility.” I was like, first of all, I’ve never, like, I don’t even know how he knows that word at three. It wasn’t a word that we use.

I was like, “Okay, what does that mean?” He’s like, “I don’t know.” I’m like, okay. But he still to this day remembers that word. And I have no clue. So I try to let my kids have their own relationship with God, but honestly, it’s really hard because then I also feel so responsible of, I have to do all these things and then I don’t want to screw them up and make them deconstruct later. I mean, it’s, you know? How do I present our faith with allowing them to have choice and not get to the point, but I’m like, or maybe it’s all in the process.
[PAGE]
Well, and I think the way my parents did it was wonderful and beautiful in so many ways and had liabilities. And I think the way that I’m doing it with my spouse and our kids is great, but has some real liabilities and probably the same for you. It’s more a choice of where are we going to screw up our kids.
[DAWN]
It’s so true. Yes, I was just thinking that today. I can’t stand when people assume everything’s perfect in my life and my kids. I’m like, no, it just means we know we’re screwed up. But yes, I think you made a good point. Like I’m super grateful for how my parents raised me too. It was a great foundation and I’m so grateful that, it’s funny because my dad, I remember being really nervous about coming out with my podcast because I talked a lot about my personal life and my deconstruction process, which happened years ago. But I had to talk to my dad and say, “okay, this is going to go live. We need to talk. All these things are going to be coming out.” I was so nervous, but he was so gracious.

I mean we’re years past, like he’s grown too in his faith. We’ve had some great conversations because of the podcast and he is the only person, Nate, in my life who listens like every Wednesday when it comes out. He always listens to each episode. So I think, one week he’s like, “I’m behind on listening.” I’m like, “You don’t have to listen in order.” It’s like it’s okay. But anyway, so I think, this might be a great opportunity for you to have good conversations. But I’m curious, what do you think, it sounds like your mom might be, you might be most nervous about your mom
[PAGE]
Uh-huh. Well, yes, I think so. I think my mind also goes to, because I am serving as a Bishop, so I’m the one that’s supposed to be the spiritual leader and all of those things. So I’m curious to anyone within my stake boundaries. Stake is the, or my ward boundaries, that geographical boundaries that might hear this and be like oh, Bishop Page is, there’s concerns there. There’s fears.
[DAWN]
What would you like? What would you want to say to that, to them?
[PAGE]
I think, I mean, where my mind goes through is just, because one of the things that I do as a Bishop is I sit with people in my office in a confidential setting, like therapist and there’s so many people that bring these doubts in a lot of times they’re I think, expecting or hoping that I’ll be able to give them some certainty, some surety. But yes, so I think what I’m doing is just bringing that a little bit more out into the open and hopefully just creating a bigger circle. If there are people that feel hurt to betrayed or concerned, or like there’s some sort of, I mean, if the spiritual wellbeing of the sheep in the flock that I’m looking over, so to speak yes, I’d say speak up about that and let’s talk about it then. I want to be attuned to that too. If I am somehow hurting someone or if my being a little bit fringy with my faith is hurtful, I would love to know that and see how it’s impacting people. So I think I’m in a place where I’m curious to see the impact, but I would really want to know what is this impact for you.
[DAWN]
So you’re really open to having conversations about it? It might, I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if it created space for them to be more honest as well and maybe you discovered together, like you can have really good conversations with a group of people about it and really search.
[PAGE]
Yes, I would. I would be very open for that.
[DAWN]
I love that. I love that you’re open and inviting people in to come talk to you about it.
[PAGE]
Well, and in group therapy, there’s a theory called system-centered theory, Yvonne, was the developer of it. It’s really based around the idea that each individual person, but then also any groups can only handle a certain amount of, what did we say earlier rocking the boat? A certain amount of difference. And it is easily perceived as dangerous. So if there’s new ideas or new thoughts or something, and in the early development of an individual or a person, it might be too much, it might really throw them out of whack or be too much or be overwhelming. So they have to shut the boundaries down, shut the borders down and say, “I can’t handle that difference. That thought is too big, too new, too different.”

But I think where I’m at personally and a lot of the people that I’m around, it’s more like, yes, I’m open it. Won’t dysregulate me too much to hear something that’s very different. In fact, I can really value that then. So I think that’s where I’m at than where I would love other people to step into that place but be very curious too, of well, who does this really shake them in a way that’s maybe unhelpful or who knows maybe traumatizing or really concerning. It sounds like the start of a really good conversation as opposed to oh, I did something irreversible here that we can’t repair or correct.
[DAWN]
I love that you just made the distinctions between that. Like, if someone’s coming to you to talk about this stuff, it’s not going to be dysregulating. You’re secure enough and you’re questioning and who you are as a human, that you’re going to be okay with this type of questioning, but also on the other side, maybe you questioning might impact someone else. So you want to know about that if it’s too damaging to, where they’re at. I love that you made that distinction. I think that’s super important that you’re, again, just being kind and gracious and open. I wonder, like you said, this has been going on for maybe two or three years, did you feel that it was more unsafe two years ago?
[PAGE]
Even internally inside my own head to be having these thoughts or feelings zone? No, because this could mean that I’m going to hell essentially. It’s probably the feelings associated with it, even if I didn’t explicitly think that. Yes, this is a big deal. It’s unacceptable, is probably the word that, even, and you hear things like that a lot in our church. Oh, if you start to doubt or start to question, it’ll lead you down a dark path. It’s a slippery slope, I mean those types of things. So there is a lot of fear-based motivation to don’t question. Which again, isn’t doctrinal, but more of a cultural thing. So yes, I think , I’ve been in this place for a long time, but it’s only been in the last two, three years that I’ve been able to even tolerate these thoughts inside my head.
[DAWN]
I like how you make the distinction between culture and doctrine. I’ve never used those words, but now that you’re saying it really resonates with me because, yes, a lot of it culture, really is what I was having a problem with in my twenties. So Nate, where do you see yourself going now? I mean, you’re two to three years into this process. You’re starting to talk to more people about it. What’s next for you?
[PAGE]
That’s a good question. What I’ve been feeling more and more, because for a while, there was a lot of fear that, oh no, this is wrong. I shouldn’t be, I need to go revert to a place that I’ve been at before. But I think I’m more and more comfortable that no, this is an important part of my journey. I think this will probably lead me to, I think being able to believe in God and believe in the church in a more genuine way. I can already feel that. When I test out, so to speak, praying and believing in God and acting in that type of way, it feels a lot more congruent and healthy as opposed to, it felt a little bit more yucky earlier and more like, oh, I’m still feeling that peer pressure that I’m supposed to do this.

So I think, I mean, and I do think a lot of people with their parents, it’s very natural to go through a rebellious stage and to say, “I hate you, mom. I hate you dad.” To have that storming in the relationship, I’ve experienced that with my spouse and I decided to do group therapy, so I experience that all the time. I think that’s in many ways, the phase that I’m in is that storming phase in which felt so wrong. I delayed it for probably way too long. If I could have been doing this in my teenage years, that would’ve been a lot better maybe. But not, I wouldn’t change my journey I guess. But yes, I’m in that place. So I think, I can already start to sense that I’m going to come out of this at some point, but yes, it just feels, I feel more sure that this is good just to be questioning, to be storming, and really wrestling with God and even saying like, “Are you there? This is the way I’m feeling.”

And Dawn, you’re feeling angry with your phone going off. I think I’ve been stepping more and more these years and oh, anger is so valuable. It’s what I tell my clients when I try to have it myself. It usually is a sign something’s wrong here. Something’s not quite right. So yes, I haven’t really been able to access those feelings. So I do, I just think this is important and I can start to sense the next phase that’ll be more of a congruent belief in God.
[DAWN]
I love that. I had I interviewed somebody, Erin moon on the podcast a while ago and she talks about, she doesn’t call it deconstruction or questioning faith. She calls it your faith expedition. She said, it’s all a part of it. Like we should have doubt and questioning and lots of feelings, maybe some really messy ones. It’s all okay. It’s an expedition. It’s not like a starting and an ending point. It’s like a whole expedition. So I feel like that’s where you’re at. You’re just journeying along. It’s still your journey. It’s still your faith journey. You’re allowed to get angry at God. Actually, I used to call my, I was like, I should be called Jacob, the wrestling with God when his name was changed, because I feel like I wrestled and still wrestle with God a lot. And where I used to be scared of that now I’m like, oh, this is really okay. It’s very, like, my faith is way stronger because I can wrestle and question Him. Like He allows space for that for me and that makes me feel way more stable and secure, if that makes any sense.
[PAGE]
Totally. Yes.
[DAWN]
That’s my hope for you is that during this time that, at least my belief is that God is totally fine with any emotion, any thought. He made you who you are. So He’s welcoming the discussion, the wrestling. He’s God, I think He can handle it.
[PAGE]
Yes. Well, as you’re talking, I mean, to me that sounds like a real relationship that you have with God.
[DAWN]
Yes. So can you tell us your website or how do people get a hold of you? Especially if you’re a therapist, let’s see, I have a lot of therapists who listen, they might want to reach out and join your groups. How do they get a hold of you?
[PAGE]
Just go to grouptherapycentral.com. Like the TV station Comedy Central, we’re Group Therapy Central. So you can read about the groups there that I run. But I also have a list there of, I think, 18 or 19 colleagues that do similar online groups for therapists and most are process-oriented groups. But I also have on the landing page there, just the main page, we do a group therapy conference. We’ll be doing that in April. I’m doing a burnout and compassion, fatigue, and moral injury, free webinar on the end of February. I don’t know when this comes out.
[DAWN]
It’ll be right around there. Maybe I’ll do it first.
[PAGE]
So things like that, you can — go ahead.
[DAWN]
No. So then we can help push that if you want.
[PAGE]
Sure. But yes, Group Therapy Central is where you can see what I’m up to and any ways that you’d want to connect with me.
[DAWN]
Thank you. I love that. I think I’m going to sign up for your webinar, so I’ll have to get that info.
[PAGE]
I’ll send it to you.
[DAWN]
Well, Nate, thank you so much. This has been a great discussion. I really appreciate you taking your time and just sharing where you’re at in life and your journey, your faith expedition.
[PAGE]
Likewise, this has been a joy and I’m very curious to see where our relationship goes over the next several years and yes, maybe I’ll come back for another retreat.
[DAWN]
Yes, that would be awesome. All right, Nate, take care.
[DAWN]
Thank you for listening today to the Faith Fringes podcast. For those of you wanting to take a deeper dive into your own faith journey, you can grab my free email course, Spiritual Reflections on my website, faithfringes.com. If you’re a therapist and would want to work with me, I offer sacred space holding for you through my consulting, as well as my soul care retreats. To find out more, go to my website or email me, dawn@faithfringes.com.

I love hearing from all my listeners. Drop me an email to tell me what’s on your mind. You can also connect with me on social media. I’m on Facebook and Instagram at Faith Fringes. As always, if you’re enjoying this podcast, I would love it if you could show it by your reviews. Go to Apple Podcasts and leave your review so that others can find this podcast and get curious about their own spiritual journey. Thanks again for listening.

Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

his podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.