[DAWN GABRIEL]
Are you a therapist who is interested in integrating your faith into your private practice, or maybe you already do that, but you’re looking for some like-minded clinicians to talk about things with, and you can’t seem to find it? Or you want to just learn how to build your business while also keeping faith as an important part of it? Well, I have a conference for you. It’s in April this year and it’s April 21st through the 24th and it’s called Faith in Practice. I am so excited. I actually have a free ticket. I want to give you there are tickets on sale and there’s only a few left, but I hold a free ticket. So I’m going to do a raffle and if you are one of my listeners, I want to offer this free ticket to you.

You have about a little over a week to put your name in. I’m going to be doing the drawing on March 14th. So as you’re listening this, send me an email dawn@faithfringes.com or find me on Faith Fringes at Instagram and on Facebook and let me know that you’re interested in putting your name in for the raffle for this free ticket. So let me tell you a little bit about it. The Faith in Practice Conference is a unique space for faith-based counselors to develop their clinical schools, boost their business and take time away for quietness and reflection. I love all those things, so I am excited and I’m going to be speaking there.

I’m going to be speaking there on soul care for therapists, why self-care just isn’t working. So I’m so excited to see you there and meet you there. If you want to come, just send me an email again, or reach out to my Facebook and Instagram at Faith Fringes. Let me know you want to be put in the raffle for this drawing for this free ticket. Again, it’s, did I tell you where it was? I don’t think I did. It’s on Jekyll Island in Georgia. It’s a beautiful island. We’ll have our own private beach. We’re going to be at a hotel, The Courtyard Marriot, and it’s a beautiful private beach and it’s just, the island is small, but you’ll be able to be by the ocean, beach. They have a pool. It’s going to be fun. There’s going to be about a hundred therapists there and we are going to have a blast. So hurry up, you have a week to get your name in, to get a free ticket. Reach out to me so that I know you’re interested, excited to see you in April.

Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, host of Faith Fringes podcast, recording live from Castle Rock, Colorado, not only where I love to live, but I also work as the owner of a counseling center in the historic downtown. This podcast is a place to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. For those desiring deeper connection with God and engaging their spirituality in new ways, this will be a safe place to allow doubt, questions and curiosity, without judgment. We will be creating intentional space to listen in on other’s faith journeys, whether that is deconstruction or reconstruction, with the hope of traveling alongside you on your own spiritual path. If you’re interested in getting even more out of this podcast, grab my free email course Spiritual Reflections on my websitefaithfringes.com. Welcome to the podcast.

Hello, welcome back to Faith Fringes. This is Dawn Gabriel, your host. I’m so excited about today’s episode because it has some of my heart and passion. You guys have heard me talk about soul care retreats, and I am going to interview four different therapists and not only therapists, they’re actually group practice owners who attended my January, 2022 inaugural, soul care for therapists retreat. I’m interviewing them just to get their feedback so you can maybe identify some of the things, questions you may have or some of the reasons you want to go, or some of the reasons you don’t want to go.

The thing I noticed about all four of these people who I’m interviewing is they’re all amazing therapists and amazing group practice owners, and they have a lot going on in their life. So I was just reflecting on how they have a lot of similarities, but they also have a lot of differences. So each one you will understand, you’ll hear their journey of what they were thinking before going and what happened while they were there and how it impacted them when they left. So I want to tell you about them and you’ll just, we’ll go probably from interview to interview, but the first one is going to be Aaron.

When you hear Aaron, listen to him. If you are feeling like you’re too busy to go, you can’t take a weekend off and you really don’t know how you’re going to make it work in your schedule. So I would say tune into Aaron. He is an Enneagram type three, if that helps anyone else, which is actually my type. So it’ll be interesting to hear what he has to say.

The next one you’ll hear from is Christie. Christie’s background is she definitely has a faith background and it’s very important to her spirituality and faith. She was coming as she, just being busy and really needed to slow down and you’ll hear from her. So if you are feeling like I really just want to connect with God and I really need some space to do that, Christy would be the one you would probably identify with the most on here.

Then the third one is Nate. Nate, his story, I actually interviewed him on the podcast earlier. You can go back to that episode and listen, Dr. Nate page, his story was interesting. He was actually questioning his faith and questioning God. So he also talks about that on here and talks about how the retreat helped him feel comfortable to do that in a safe place.

Then the last one is Gen. Gen, if you’re feeling like she’s very busy, too, tons of energy, but also very spirituality is very important to her, but Gen actually had a different faith background than myself and she still wanted to come and it still impacted her. You’ll hear that a little bit in her talk as well, but so if you have a lot of energy and you love mindfulness, Gen, I would say is really big on mindfulness and practices it in her life. She still needed the time to slow down and come to the soul care retreat. So hopefully you can find yourself in these four. I’m sure there’s many other stories, but these are just four of the ones who came.

I actually want to let you know that I have another soul care retreat scheduled here in Colorado. It’s September 23rd through 25th 2022. So it’s coming up. And that one’s for sure. I’m probably looking at getting a few more maybe one in may or June is what I’m looking, but definitely the one in September. So let me tell you, what’s included. Lodging is three days and two nights, and it’s in the beautiful black forest area in Colorado. It’s in between Colorado Springs and Denver. Well, it’s close to Colorado Springs in Monument area. You’ll have a view of Pike’s peak and the mountains, and it’s just a beautiful setting.

What also is included is all your meals, all your snacks, there’s three outdoor hot tubs, there’s trails you can go on, it’s such a peaceful environment. Also there’s going to be a small community of therapists. So I don’t allow more than 10 to come at these retreats, because I feel like we need that safer space of a small group and they’re all going be therapists. So it is a way to just feel a little more comfortable letting down with people who really get the role you’re in and the layers of how we do life. It is a little different when we’re with non therapists.

I’m not trying to say that in a bad or arrogant way. It’s just, well, if you’re a therapist knowing listening what I mean? So there will also be group soul care activities that are very experiential and there will also be some solo time that is, I will have some guided solo time or it can be structured really for whatever you need. We are also going to incorporate some guided, mindful hikes and some unguided hikes. So there’ll be some hikes in there as well. So again, check it out. You can go to my website, faithfringes.com and I’ll have more information on there or you can reach out to I’d love to any questions.

I’d love to jump on a quick phone call you if that feels better and we can just talk about. I’d love to see you at the soul care retreat for therapists, 23rd to 25th. I have an early bird special going on, so check that out until June. You could sign up for early bird special and yes, reach out and just listen to the next four therapists as they talk about what the soul care retreat for them was like and what really impacted them. Thanks so much for listening. Hope to hear from you soon.
[DAWN]
Okay, Aaron. Welcome. Thank you for coming on today.
[AARON]
Of course. Thanks for having to me.
[DAWN]
If you can just tell my listeners like who you’re and tell us a little bit about your counseling center.
[AARON]
My name is Aaron Potratz and I am a licensed counselor and a clinical supervisor in the Portland, Oregon area. I’ve been in practice for about 15 years or so. I started out as a solo practitioner and then I expanded to a group practice in about 2014. That’s where I hired some of my first people and actually my business partner, Nathan Hawkins. I started a second business in 2016 so actually we co-owned that business. He’s got one, I got one. We also started a podcast a year and a half ago called The Shrink Think Podcast to bridge the gap between clients and therapists. I’m a busy guy. I’ve got lots of plate spinning, but I enjoy it all. It keeps me busy and interested and never dormant, which is what I like.
[DAWN]
I love it. And you are actually the perfect type of therapist and entrepreneur that I love having these retreats for. Today we’re going to talk about, you came on the beta test of soul care for therapist retreat. Overall, when I say that, what comes up? What comes into your mind?
[AARON]
Well, first of all, I think Brandy, the Beta Male podcast. I met Nathan and I were just talking about them recently. But no, it’s, I think it’s perfect just the word beta. I think you’re absolutely right because Dawn we’ve talked before, you and I Enneagram threes, so we’re these achievers, somewhat performers. I don’t particularly like the spotlight, but we perform in a sense of like, we do lots of things and you can get that from my bio there. Like all the things that I’m doing are awesome and really wonderful and keep me busy and you can say they are lofty goals for myself.

But really I just, I want to challenge myself and see what I’m capable of. So all that’s to say the difficult things for me is slowing down and taking time for ourselves and this retreat, I wanted to do it. I was like, oh, but I have too many other things going on. Then a couple of the people from a mastermind group were like, I’m totally, I’m like, well now I have to go because everybody else is going. But it was like, it was like one of those things where like I need to, and everybody else is doing it, so I probably should also. So that’s how I made it.
[DAWN]
This is perfect actually. This is great. So now that you’ve gone, would it change your mind looking back like, oh actually I should have went anyway.
[AARON]
Yes, definitely. Definitely. I think it was one of those things where I knew that I needed to go it, but like getting myself to go, like pushing myself to actually take the step to go was just the hurdle I needed to get over. So it really helped me to have some good friends going and obviously you were putting it on and I really wanted to see you and support you. So that, that really helped honestly. But looking back now that it’s done, it’s the kind thing that’s like, wow. Like I need this in my life. Whether it’s once a year or a couple of times a year, it’s just the thing where taking a step back for me anyway, it was taking a step back a step away from everything to really just reflect and look at myself and my life and my work, everything just at an arms length. I wasn’t really trying to do anything with it. I wasn’t trying to solve anything or figure anything out. I just wanted to see it all. Honestly, that first exercise that you had do was so perfect for that. Maybe you can, I don’t remember exactly how you, I just remember how I responded to it. So you could was that exercise and they’ll tell you what it meant to me.
[DAWN]
So for those of you who weren’t there, I had about seven or eight different glass vs. Filled half filled with rocks and water in them. Like half of them were on a release side and anything you needed to release. There were different categories like relationships, family work, self things you needed to release. I led a guided meditation. You just go up and put rocks in, as something came up and you wanted to something, it was like physical way of releasing. Then the other side was receive. It was some deep words of what you want to receive, whether it was grounding or love or being or aware anything. So it was just kind, I minute exercise where we just kept releasing and
[AARON]
Receiving’s incredible, because it felt like a couple of minutes to me, honestly. So if it was 20 or 30 minutes, it went by in an instant, I was just focused on really that process of like, yes, what, what am I bringing here? What am I like the baggage in a sense that, what am I bringing to this retreat that I want to like check at the door. I don’t want to carry around with me everywhere that I’m going. This is a sole care. So like on the other side, like what do I need to receive and its place. It’s, for me, it’s also a bit of ifs, internal family systems work as well of there’s a burden that some of my parts are carrying and what do they want to do here instead? So I just really let go of a, of like decision making and problem solving and juggling and things that I do. But like, those things also can weigh or Bo down those, the, I just checked those at the door. I let go of those things and instead I was like, I just want to receive peace and calm and joy. I did that I was telling Nathan my friend business about afterwards office afterwards, where I was like, I’m just not going to go to work anymore. I just don’t care. I was walking around like not a, in my head. I was like, great.
[DAWN]
Without the like going crazy on a of office.
[AARON]
Exactly.
[DAWN]
Well, would you say that you knew like a lot of people, I think when they’re coming into this, they don’t realize they don’t have place for that. Especially group practice owners, therapists, like when, where else do you have a space where you can completely let go? Like at least I know I don’t like I’ve had to carve it out and that’s what this retreat is all about. So I’m just curious, is that common for you to have space to do that? Or is this an uncommon thing?
[AARON]
Yes, it’s definitely uncommon. I think as I have been reflecting on it, because it’s been a couple of weeks now. just looking at like actually this upcoming weekend, I wanted to get away and have a change of scenery and do something like that on a, just a mini retreat sort of a thing maybe for a day. Really that’s about as close as it comes, honestly. It’s it’s where can I go if it’s going to be a vacation for a few days or a week or whatever, that’s, that’s different. It’s not the same thing. This is really just getting away to restore. So yes, it, I just don’t see that in my life, many places, I think it’d have to be very intentional about carving that out. But then the other thing to me that made it possible and even successful was having the, the people, the therapists around I think I had said to you afterwards, it really, it felt like being in this womb of safety of like everywhere you go, everyone around you is just, you can start talking about any of the issues that you’ve got going in your life, the struggles you’ve been going through, even in like your whole life, like we were just talking before you were recording, like sitting in the hot tub and just spontaneously sharing.
[AARON]
I shared my story, my life, my life, and be where I am. Like those kinds of things you just don’t do with people that you don’t really feel safe with. Everybody there was very open and receptive and safe, and that also honestly made those connecting times and the entire environment just feel so, so soulful and caring.
[DAWN]
I’m glad you said that Erin, because I think that was when I was thinking like how, what would I need at a retreat to feel completely let go? I, when I go on retreats or events even, or groups, like I constantly have that thing in my head as I’m reading into stuff too much, , or I’m trying not to, but I’m always a therapist. I usually don’t try to tell people I am, if they don’t know, because the questions are different. So just being in a group of 12 therapists total was, I thought one of the things that I wanted, the design of the sole care retreat, just for therapists, I think it was important to everyone who is coming.
[AARON]
Definitely. Yes, definitely. I think it provided a certain kind environment that we’re all familiar with mm-hmm and we’re all very comfortable in that role within ourselves, but also we can give ourselves permission to not be a therapist, just be our authentic self with each other.
[DAWN]
I love that was one of my favorite things in, it was funny, even joke on. When, when you think about soul care and spirituality, what, what did that look like on the retreat? How did that come up for you personally?
[AARON]
Yes, I think honestly, really it was a lot of what I said before of looking at everything, taking a step back and just having quiet time with God to say like, here’s, here’s what I’ve been going through. Here’s what’s been happening. Here’s how we’ve been feeling about it, just that step back, look at everything. It was just a way to, it really was a retreat with God as well for me, honestly, in a strange way. Now that I think about it, it’s like, oh, he and I went on a retreat as well. I mean, it’s not like he wasn’t going to be there. It’s not like, oh wow, you’re here too? It’s like, he’s everywhere, but it was one of those things where it’s like, I’m being more intentional about having that time and that space.

So it’s for that relationship to get away. It was a retreat for us as well. Then I think a lot of it too, was the connections with other people hearing some of their stories. Some people had been hurt or wounded by God or faith or people in the church or the church. Other people had been trying to just reconnect with their faith or rejuvenate themselves spiritually. So those kinds of conversations and connections were also really helpful. Just in caring for other people, hearing their story, but also reflecting on my own and being like, yes, where am I with all of that? You know, does some of this resonate with me in some ways that I wouldn’t normally get to see or reflect on when I’m just going through the hustle and bust of life?
[DAWN]
Actually, I’m glad you, it’s funny. All my questions, you’re answering before I ask them. Maybe it’s our personality. I’m like, I don’t have to ask the questions because you’re bringing all up. It’s totally leading there. It’s awesome. It made think that the inner faith that was there, we didn’t have all Christians believing in God. We, in fact, I said at the beginning, if you need to use the word divine or change, some people didn’t even want to use the pronoun, He for God. They wanted to use she, which I was totally fine with, but I’m curious from your background even, what do you think, do you think it’s important to keep it as inner faith or do you think it’s important to say, I’m going to piece it out and just have one for religious trauma, one for Christians, one for interfaith? I’m just curious on your thoughts.
[AARON]
Yes, I don’t know where God would lead that to happen, but what I can tell you from what I observed was it needed to happen this way for a lot of people. I think there were several people that I talked with that had said I had been hurt or I have trauma from it and the conversations and connections, and then even the exercises that you guys had were very restorative and healing for them. So from that standpoint the interfaith worked really well and needed to happen. And I really appreciate that. I have a ton of respect for people who have different belief systems and values. I don’t people to agree with me. There’s a saying that goes if you’re in a relationship with somebody else and the two of you believe the same things on everything, then one of you is irrelevant.

As a three I don’t want to be the other. I got my own shame already. So I really enjoyed having these different perspectives there. I appreciated the respect that was all around. There was nothing there that felt like we couldn’t talk about something, we couldn’t share, that we were stepping on anyone’s toes. I was not stepping on theirs. They were not stepping on mine. There was just this mutual respect that happened that I thought was fantastic. So I don’t know what the future will hold if that’s what is needed for people in the future but I thought it was fantastic.
[DAWN]
I wasn’t sure either, hence the beta testing but it was really beautiful to me personally at the end, when I listened or interacted with people. I was like, oh my gosh, I love this more than I thought I would. I was nervous about it. because I didn’t want to like offend anyone or say the wrong thing but it was beautiful the group just really being respectful and I think that’s what we need right now in this life, respecting each other’s beliefs
[AARON]
Yes. I really appreciated how confident or I guess just, I don’t want to say asserting, because you weren’t asserting anything, just how confident you were and just, “These are my beliefs and I’m saying it this way and this is who I am, but you’re welcome and free to be however you need to be.” I like that there wasn’t any tiptoeing or dancing around anything. It’s just like, this is who I, and you can be who you are and that’s perfectly safe. I had that awkwardness in the beginning, like how is this going to go? But as soon as you did that, and as soon as people just started sharing, it’s like, oh, we’re all okay. This is great.
[DAWN]
Yes.
[AARON]
We’re adults here.
[DAWN]
And therapists. Well, the last I have is really, if there’s a therapist out there trying to figure out, should I go to one of these soul care retreats for therapists? What would you say to them?
[AARON]
I think my own story is probably something that you might be able to resonate with. So I guess I would just ask if you’re even interested in this, like if you paused on it for a moment, you said, oh, I’d like to go or how could I make that work, that probably means you need it. If you’re like me at all, where you’ve got things going on and it’s just figuring out how and where am I going to carve the time to do this, that means you probably need to do it. Because the things that are important to us we have to prioritize them. Oftentimes as therapists, we don’t prioritize ourselves. We give ourselves to other people, we care for them, but then there’s not much left for us.

So this is one of those times where it’s like, this is so important for you to carve it out for yourself. You need it, probably a whole lot more than you realize. I know coming back, I felt so much more refreshed even though Monday was like hitting the ground running in a certain way. But I felt like I just had a more perspective and energy. It’s like I was coming down from the mountain top of sorts back to the work where I was like, okay, I’m good. I’m ready to hit this hard. So it was definitely soul care and refreshing for me.
[DAWN]
I love it. That sounds great. Thank you so much. I am so glad you were one of my beta testers. I knew you’d give me feedback good or bad. It was been super helpful.
[AARON]
Yes, I just, to be honest, like there was, one of the questions on your feedback was like, what would you change about it? I just had a really hard time answering that because I was like, honestly, not really anything. It was great. Everything about it, you just did such a good job thinking everything through and providing things that you knew therapists would need. I mean, that’s your caring nature coming through in this retreat. So thank you so much for all that work and for inviting me. It was really, really wonderful to be there.
[DAWN]
Thank you. You actually had to drive through a snowstorm to get there.
[AARON]
I did. That was amazing.
[DAWN]
We had some ice the first night but it went off. Well, thank you Aaron.
[AARON]
You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.
[DAWN]
Well today I have with me Christy Pennon and I’m so excited to interview her. Christy, tell us a little bit about your practice and who you are and just a little bit about you.
[CHRISTY]
Well, I live in Alexandria, Louisiana, and for those of you are not familiar where that is, it’s like in the middle of the boot. So if you look at the boot, it’s like right there in the middle. So I have a practice there, The Inspire Counseling and consulting, which is a group practice and we service ages four and up, with all different challenges and issues that they face because we have therapists that have different specialties. So it’s been a really fun experience because I’ve had the practice for about, a little bit over two years now and just to see the way it’s grown and the way it’s impacted the community has been really exciting. So I do that. Then also I’m aspiring to be a consultant that helps practice owners that are really wanting to move to the next level, grow and expand and take big leaps and do things that pushes them outside of their conference zone.
[DAWN]
Christy, I think you’d be great at that because you just have such a fun, loving personality and really encouraging. I think you’d make a great consultant. And you’ve had so much experience in your time of how to pivot and do a lot of different things.
[CHRISTY]
Right. In my very brief time of private practice ownership, I feel like there’s been everything that’s been thrown at me, but the kitchen sink, I think I’m still waiting for that. But, it’s really been a fun adventure even though it’s been scary at times to just take the leap and see what actually is possible when you just cast a vision and put yourself out there. So I really want to help other people do that as well.
[DAWN]
And for listeners who might not know Christy, she’s talking about like a hurricane coming through her office and having to move, floods. She’s not joking.
[CHRISTY]
Like a year long renovation on just anything.
[DAWN]
Well, Christy my soul care retreats are aimed at therapists, but even more specifically group practice owners. So when you were starting to think of, first of all, what is this soul care retreat and why am I going, can you maybe tell the listeners why did you go or why should they go?
[CHRISTY]
Well, I guess I have to give a little bit of a disclaimer is that me and Dawn have been in a small group where we’ve been meeting for the past year. So I’ve really got to know you Dawn really more personally over the year. So I knew that your heart for doing this was something that you always aspired to do. So when you said meet me in the mountains, we’re going to do a soul care retreat, I think, like we were just talking about this. I think I was the first person to be like, I will come. Just tell me where to go. I will show up. I think honestly, after what you were talking about, the crazy two and a half years that I’ve had I was really in need of a time to just reconnect with God and to connect with other people and to unwind and to get away. I actually extended my soul care for the whole week before I went on the retreat. So it was something that I just felt like, okay, this is perfect timing and I am ready to just go and just show up and see what happens.
[DAWN]
I love it. So when you got there,, what did you experience anything at all?
[CHRISTY]
Well, I think one of the things that is super valuable to me that I did experience was just the connection with other therapists who get it. So when you go to different retreats where there might be other people from different professions or for different reasons, there’s a lot of this stuff that people don’t get, because they don’t get how it is to maybe be a therapist, how to maybe own a practice. So if you get in a room of people that already get it that is freeing in and of itself because you don’t have to explain a lot. You just show up and you be you.

So that was something that was really impactful for me. I think moments to just be still because I’m somebody who tends to stay pretty busy was also something that was an awesome experience. Me and you Dawn talked on the retreat because there was this great thing, I’m from Louisiana, so it never snows here unless there’s an ice storm and then bust pipes and creates water. So peaceful, but other than that, like really just being able to be in the snow. This was in the winter when I went to the retreat and so it was beautiful. It had just snowed on the way in.

I remember I put on my boots and I put on my jacket, which we really don’t have to do down here a whole lot and I went out in the snow. I actually sat when it was snowing in this beautiful herd of deer. I don’t know, is that what you call them, herd, came through and I don’t know, it was just a very special moment for me because I just sat and I just felt the presence of God. I just felt that in that moment it was just stillness and there was like this connection. That sounds really corny, but like me and these deer, we just looked at each, it was very peaceful. I think just having experiences like that, that unless you’re intentional about giving yourself this space to have those moments, we miss them. So I think one of the things for that experience for me was just to be able to take breath and actually be open to whatever experiences came my way. That was one of them.
[DAWN]
I love that. You actually said a few things, you said just the freedom of being with other therapists, that was a great word I haven’t used before with it, but yes, the freedom to just let go on this retreat, but then things that I couldn’t plan. Like the deer, I didn’t plan that. That wasn’t part of the retreat. I was like, “Ready, go. Send the deer for Christy.” There was just so conducive to just have those walks. And there was, we’re in the forest. It was just, yes, I think that’s super important, the space you create for a retreat, the atmosphere you’re in and what better than mountains and trees?
[CHRISTY]
Well, and for me, one of the things that was beautiful about this retreat too, is that everyone came with different spiritual beliefs or spiritual backgrounds or different faith orientations, which I think was pretty awesome too. And faith has always been such an important part of my life and as I get older, I’m not always as intentional to allow the space to connect back to that deeper purpose and deeper meaning. And for me, I actually even took a time on the retreat to do some goal setting, but it was a different focus for me because I felt like it was more of diving deep into again, remembering what is the purpose and the reason behind that I started this practice anyways?

What is the reason that I started pursuing certain things in my life anyways? A lot of that has to do with a deep seated faith of it was what I was supposed to be doing. So I think to have that opportunity to reconnect to that, and then to also just be still enough to listen to what I felt like that I was moving forward to next and what was the next thing to create for me was really meaningful.
[DAWN]
I love that Christy. I didn’t, I hadn’t heard that, so I’m glad you shared that because I think it’s so important for people who do have like a faith as their grounding value. We do need to slow down. I can’t connect on a deep level or even a creative level unless I have some downtime, some slow time and intentional time. It’s hard. When we run group practices, we’re running like full speed ahead.
[CHRISTY]
It is so hard because we value the doing. I don’t know about you, but I sometimes forget that the moments of quiet is just as needed and just as productive in a lot of ways if that’s the way you want to look at it as doing the busy work. So for me, just having that space and like I said, I even got to like some more time at the beginning before I even entered the retreat. So I’d had a whole week of slowing down and just being present and really that helped me a lot, just be able to refocus and then come back to my team and really be able to, I think, give more because I was able to have that time to get my soul care.
[DAWN]
No, it’s so important, otherwise we burn out.
[CHRISTY]
Yes, absolutely. This is a profession that it’s really easy to burn out in. Because helping others is not easy. I mean, I forget about this until I’m talking to some of my friends who are completely different profession than me. Not that what they’re doing is hard work too, because it is, but I forget the emotional and the spiritual side that does go into holding the space for people, walking them through some really challenging times in their life. And I think we always aren’t aware of how much that does sometimes, I don’t want to say drain us because it can drain and it can also be fulfilling, but I think being able to make sure that you’re taking that space to be able to be filled yourself is really important. I think that’s what this retreat was able to do for me.
[DAWN]
Yes, that’s exactly what I wanted it to do for a therapist. I feel like we as therapists, we hold space for others, but I wanted to hold sacred space for therapists themselves, because it is hard for us to do for ourselves. So I’m so glad that you got that out of it. If someone was thinking like saying, I’m not sure if I should go or not, what would you say to another therapist or a group practice owner who’s thinking through, should I go on this retreat? I’m not sure. I’d rather stay and just get everything done.
[CHRISTY]
I mean, I think if you’re saying that then you definitely need to go on the retreat. But I think if you’re on the edge and you’re like thinking like, is this really for me, I would really do a check in with yourself and say, am I in a place where I am operating from a place of abundance, that I’m operating from a place of joy? I don’t want to say no stress, because I think there’s hard to not have any stress in this type of work, but like, are you operating from a place of scarcity? I know one of the activities you did with us, not to do a spoiler alert was to look, not to give us these, I can’t remember what it was called Dawn, but where we looked at, how are you operating out of and where do you feel?

It’s like, almost like , I don’t want to say a checklist, but like a gauge of where do you feel you are in these areas? So I would suggest that if you’re feeling maybe drained or overwhelmed or just uncertain, or maybe you’re actually feel like you’re doing really great as a therapist or a practice owner, and you just really want some space to give yourself to reconnect and to connect with others, then I think this is something you definitely should do. Because not only was the retreat center, a really beautiful place. Dawn also gave us a lot of downtime too. So it wasn’t like we’re working through these crazy workbooks all the time and doing these exercises. It was a really good balance of time, but then also intentional time, so free time and intentional time. So I think if you’re just in that place where you’re like, man, I could really use a vacation right now, then maybe instead of doing a vacation, go get yourself some soul care.
[DAWN]
I’m cool with that one right there. I love it. Love it, Christy. Well, Christy, if somebody wants to get ahold of you specifically and work with some consulting stuff, how do they get ahold of you?
[CHRISTY]
Well, you can find me at christypennison.com. I’m sure Dawn will have my name somewhere in this if you don’t know how to spell it. But yes, you can just find me there and you can reach out to me. Just tells you a little bit more about me and the work that I do and I’m passionate about and yes, definitely connect me there. But if you’re thinking about doing some soul care, I say, make the leap. And I appreciate you Dawn for following your dream and your passion about being able to help therapists with this because I really do see it really being an amazing thing as it goes forward and develops in the future.
[DAWN]
Oh, thank you, Christy. I’ve so appreciated you on this journey with me and I love your support and enthusiasm, so thank you.
[CHRISTY]
Yes, absolutely.
[DAWN]
Thank you for this time today, just giving me your feedback.
[CHRISTY]
Anytime girl, anytime.
[DAWN]
So I know when we were on the retreat together, I don’t remember which night it was, I remember you mentioned something in the group and I asked Malia, I said, “Did you hear Nate say that he’s questioning God or is he questioning his belief in God?” I was like, “We got to follow up on that.” So I’m just curious if you want to talk about the retreat. How did you experience that coming in with all these questions and just maybe talk about the retreat and how that impacted this journey with you?
[NATE]
Yes, I think, I mean, being able to be open in that space, and there were 10 of us participants, I think, plus you and Malia that were leading it. So being able to just cross that threshold and say, yes, I am questioning God. I did that with my spouse maybe two years ago, and that was really helpful and healing. To do that with this group of folks on the retreat was the same. So I think I just felt a lot more strength in, I mean, at least people being able to handle me and I think believing more in a God that would be able to handle that. So I mean, that was one of the big things.

There was a woman there who was part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I think it was extra nice that I got to have that experience too. Of course I, we connected and had number of good talks after I came out, so to speak, is questioning. So that was one of the, I mean, and the retreat as a whole, I just, I highly valued for so many different reasons. One of the big reasons was you saying, and you said it a few times, you even sent an email a few days before we started, but all the agenda of things that we had planned, it was, you can do any of these things that you want, or you don’t have to. You could go and hike or nap, or do whatever you want.

That was very healing for me and I think very much a counter to what we’ve been talking about growing up. I did the pressure that there isn’t a choice. You have to be compliant and do these things the authority said you have to do. That gave me more space to be able to be me and show myself and be more authentic with where I’m at and what I’m believing.
[DAWN]
Yes, I wanted to leave a lot of room for whatever each person individually needed. Because I know a lot of people go on retreats to connect as a group, but this retreat was more soul care. So it was more on what each individual needed and what each individual needed with their spirituality. So it was really, for me, I was walking a fine line of how much group connection versus how much solo time. Looking back, I see both are important, but I think I’ll always have to walk that line and just create space. I feel like I’m the space holder for both and I wanted to create enough room for freedom. If napping can be spiritual, I think I said that, if you need to nap, listen to your body and nap. If you need to connect with someone, connect. But yes, we had a lot of downtime., Yes, like we had a few hours each day, like still time, downtime because if you’ve gone on retreats or conferences, they’re just packed full usually.
[NATE]
Oh my goodness, yes.
[DAWN]
And you leave exhausted even though invigorated but exhausted. So how did you leave the Soul-Care for Therapists Retreat? How did you leave that feeling?
[NATE]
Honestly, quite invigorated. I mean, it’s hard to put into a few words, the experience I had, but I’m quite introverted. But people love introverts, I think is what a lot of people say with the Myers Briggs. But growing up, I remember in high school and even college having that experience of, oh, I want to go play, I want to connect. I’m feeling a little bit lonely. I want to go be with my friends. But I haven’t really had that in the last 10, 15, 20 years. I just, I thought that, oh, that’s part of me growing up, but then of course that’s part of being married and having young kids or people around all the time. So when I have free time, usually I’m just, oh, I want to be alone, I close the door. When I’m in my office doing therapy, there’s something about closing that door that is like, hoo. I really so much more rejuvenated that type of way.
[NATE]
So what was fascinating was this retreat and having so much open time, we had two hour breaks in the morning and then a three hour break in the afternoon. Then of course in the evening was wide open. I just laid in my bed, not napping, but just letting my mind go. It felt really good. I did have some FOMO like, oh, no, people are probably connecting. Oh, I wish I was out there. Maybe I’m missing out on things, but it felt really good to just have that introverted time. But then on day two, I was actually feeling filled —
[DAWN]
Of your introvert time?
[NATE]
Yes. I’m like, I would prefer to be around people and I was asking what’s the party tonight when we’re all done? What are people doing? Is there a hot tub group, is there other things? It ended up being a game night that people pulled together. It was just really fun, but I felt like my high school or college self on that, like I’m genuinely wanting this as opposed to there being a part of this. That’s like, ahm, just so tired. I’m so drained. I want to just go be by myself to rejuvenate. So I think that was really helpful to let that part of myself reawaken and to realize more and more that no, in my life, I do need more of this soul care and this intentional, and I think one of the big things is I was able to psychologically allow myself to have that time on the retreat. So inside my own head, I was not having that pressure that I often do, feeling guilt or shame, “Oh, I should be interacting with my kids or I should be doing the dishes or I should be working on this or that.”
[DAWN]
I love that. I love that you were able to just completely let go of some things and just lay on your bed and just peace out.
[NATE]
Yes, peace out.
[DAWN]
I’m curious, for someone who was questioning God, how did some of the spiritual exercises feel to you? Were you like, I got to check out or I’m going to sit through them? How did you, and you can say whatever, I’m just curious how they were for you.
[NATE]
Well, I’ve a lot of meditation groups. I’ve sat through guided meditations and I think, I feel well. I enjoy just having quiet time and letting myself go. So I mean, I really valued, you did a rock activity. That one hit me and then the light with it but then I think the next day you did one or two and I ended up just spacing out during them. I can’t remember them fully.
[DAWN]
That’s totally fine. Yes, I’m just curious because I want people to say, oh, I have a similar story. Should I go on this retreat or not? I want to be like, “Well, Nate, wasn’t sure what he believed and this what he experienced.” So it’s not, that was the one thing I had to let go of coming in. Like I just create space, but I’m not in charge of that person’s space. So yes, whatever you needed whenever you needed.
[NATE]
I mean, for me, what was healing was the freedom that I experienced there.
[DAWN]
Yes, love it.
[NATE]
Then, yes, and I appreciated you holding the space. And even just right from the beginning when we first met, when I showed up, you were and very curious. I think I was one of the first ones to be there, but you keyed me and you, and throughout the weekend you did that. You were very inclusive with me. I don’t think knew too many of the other people there. I didn’t really even know you. So that was, I really valued that, and I think that carried on. I mean, we even, we pulled tables together for each meal because we all wanted to sit together. The space you held for me was spot-on, really attentive yet lots of freedom, very inclusive. Then I did, I loved the picture activity that we did on the last day where we each chose a picture and talked about that. So maybe that’ll cue some interest for your listeners.
[DAWN]
We had a different activities to get people thinking and open up that space to connect with God or connect with themselves in whatever they were trying, whatever they needed. But yes, thank you so much for your feedback. I really appreciate hearing more on a personal level, what it was like for you. I definitely always keep the hours of freedom in there, the hours of space. And the freedom to choose and sleep if you want, that’s important to me. So thank you.
[NATE]
It was to me. It sounds like a lot of people coming appreciated the retreat.
[DAWN]
Well, Nate, in closing, if there’s anyone out there, actually, I’m going to ask you two questions, if anyone’s out there questioning, should I go on this retreat or not? What would you tell them? Then I’ll ask the second question later.
[NATE]
I mean, my thought, I don’t know what your process is, but I would say reach out to Dawn and talk and have, I mean, we had a, because I listened to you in the conference and I felt like, oh, I really want to do that. So I sent you my email and then it was probably two weeks later that we had a phone call scheduled. In those two weeks I was like, “I probably won’t. Why would do something like that?” You know, but then when we spoke on the phone, it just, I felt that again, like, wow, I really want to do this. I don’t know, I can’t put a finger to exactly what it was but part of it was you Dawn. So I would encourage people to reach out to you and say, “I’m interested. Let’s talk and let’s out if this is a good fit.” It is the type of thing, what would you know, other choices. Maybe I’d go to that retreat with someone but I would say, just do it. The worst that could happen is you’d have a delightful hotel and good food and some good company and some meditations you can space out in there.
[DAWN]
Yes. I mean, a lot of people, I think, especially group practice owners or therapists, we’re so used to giving and we’re so used to hustling and making things happen that it’s very, it’s scary to slow down. So I know, actually Aaron was saying the same thing when I interviewed him. It took a lot for him to make the decision to go too, but still glad he did. He didn’t he needed it until he was there. So I think a lot of us with our, whatever personality you have, if you’re a therapist or a group practice owner, like it’s hard to slow down and be alone with your own thoughts. It’s like, no, we’re used to being with somebody else’s thoughts. We’re in that role, but to be totally focused on me, that’s uncomfortable. So I think, yes, I’m glad you pushed on.
[NATE]
That’s, I’m glad you’re saying that. I do a lot of work with therapists on burnout and compassion, fatigue, and recovery. One of the biggest things I see is people know what they need, but actually feeling empowered and take the steps to do what they need is hard for a lot of people, I think in general, but especially therapists. So this would be a great chance to have a counterintuitive move and say, no, I’m going to do this retreat and do it for myself and that’s okay.
[DAWN]
Yes. My last question, Nate, for you is if someone’s out there and they are in the same space as you, questioning God, questioning the faith they were brought up in, any words of wisdom or tips, you’d want to say, tips is not too cheesy, but any words you want to say to them?
[NATE]
Yes, go on a retreat with Dawn.
[DAWN]
I didn’t meant that.
[NATE]
I know, but I did play ball. But yes, for folks out there that are similar to me, because I just felt like I couldn’t come out essentially, I would say, yes, find people like Dawn or reach out to me or find online groups or, what are they called forms, Reddit, other things where you can be able to be authentic in your questioning and really show up and be able to get your needs met. Because if you are like me, you’ve probably been in some ways going without e oxygen or whatever metaphor you want to use, if you’re sealed up and not able to really show up for yourself. So yes, I’d say find people that can help you do that and really show up in a way that there’s strength and there’s healthiness for you and for other people. And yes, I’d love to be part of that journey if anyone wants to reach out to me, but you can definitely reach out to Dawn or any of the things that you’re putting on.
[DAWN]
Yes. So actually, do you have a group that would be beneficial for people like that? I’m curious if you run a group on people questioning?
[NATE]
I run four groups. They’re 90 minutes. Or four different cohorts, I guess you could say. They’re online process groups for therapists. They’re not therapy groups. They’re process groups, they’re training groups actually. So people can use professional development if they want. We meet twice a month in different states. We have people all over the world actually. So starting tomorrow I’m starting my fourth group but it’s a place for people to come in and share really whatever they want. It’s not specific that, oh, this is for faith deconstruction or things like that. But a lot of people, you know imposter syndrome is big for therapists, a lot of burnouts and fatigue. But if it’s folks that are wanting to have a here and now experiential practice with other therapists where we’re really curious about what are we feeling in the room, the virtual room together, what are our interpersonal dynamics that are playing out? How might my, because I tend to be more avoidably attached, how do my, does my avoidant attachment show up in this group with these people?

So we’re curious about your life outside of group, what your week was like or what it was like growing up in your family of origin or anything that you want to bring, but always be curious of, well, how is that playing out in group and in parallel processes either or ways you’re showing up with us. We’ve wonderful experiences in these groups people talking about faith. There’s usually quite a bit of diversity in faith traditions where people are at. And actually fascinating enough, some very good discussions. There’s not a lot of rocking the boat. So I think in some ways that’s where we’re at in the US and the world where people can talk about God and different faith in a way that doesn’t bring unresolvable conflicts. Of course, there are other topics that are much harder to do but religion and faith, at least in my experience and the groups I do, they haven’t been so.
[DAWN]
That’s great. Again, another safe place to discuss things is so needed and you’re holding that space for others. So can you tell us your website or how do people get a hold of you? Especially you’re a therapist, let’s say I have a of therapists listening, they want to reach out and join your groups. How can they get ahold of you?
[NATE]
Just go to grouptherapycentral.com, like the TV station, Comedy Central, where it’s Group Therapy Central. So you can read about the groups there that I run, but I also have a list there of, I think, 18 or 19 colleagues that do similar online groups for therapists and most are process oriented groups. But I also have on the landing page there, just the main page. We do a group therapy conference. We’ll be doing in April. I’m doing a burnout and capacity on injury webinar the end of February. I don’t know when this comes out.
[DAWN]
That’ll be right around there. Maybe I’ll do it first, so you can push that.
[NATE]
So things like that, you can — go ahead.
[DAWN]
No, so then we can help push that if you want.
[NATE]
Sure. But yes, Group Therapy Central is where you can see what I’m up to and any ways you want to connect with me.
[DAWN]
Thank you. I love that. I think I’m going to sign up for your webinar. So I’ll have to get that info.
[NATE]
I’ll send it to you.
[DAWN]
Well, Nate, thank you so much. This has been a great discussion. I really appreciate you taking your time and just sharing where you’re at in life and your journey, your faith expedition.
[NATE]
Likewise, this has been a joy and I’m very curious to see where our relationship Dawn goes over the next several years. Maybe I’ll come back for another retreat.
[DAWN]
Yes, that would be awesome. All right, Nate, take care.
[DAWN]
So Gen, you’re back on the podcast and I would love for you to just, yes, let’s just talk about the soul care retreat for therapist you were on with me in January. Maybe tell our listeners real quick, in case, they didn’t hear your last episode with me, tell who you, where you’re at, what you do.
[GENNIFER MORLEY]
Okay. Sure. I am a therapist and a group practice owner in Boulder, Colorado. I do private consulting for group practices and private practice. I love being outside, which is part of why I live in Boulder. We were just talking about how expensive it is to live in Boulder, but that segues also into your retreat, which was like, so I know you’re such a nature love. What’s the word?
[DAWN]
I don’t know. I love nature too.
[GENNIFER]
You love being outside. That is always like anything that’s like we’re going to be outside a lot. That’s already got a vote from me. Let’s see, so that’s what I do. As you can, like everyone listening could probably imagine, it’s a lot of hats. I also a mom and like a human with friends in life, there’s a lot of things. I think you were talking to me about this a while ago, like, oh, I want to do this thing. I was like, no everybody’s waiting. So I was really excited. I was like, oh my God, yes. Because particularly being with other therapists —
[DAWN]
It’s important
[GENNIFER]
That it’s just priceless, for me and also group practice owners, because that’s even another level, but just therapists in general. Like I have a couple friends who are therapists and you can just, there’s so many conversations you can have so much more quickly and efficiently just with another therapist, particularly if you just want to talk about what your life is.
[DAWN]
Absolutely. That’s what you were saying. Like, I haven’t seen anything else like that. I was going to ask you what specifically and specifically a slowing down space for therapist exclusively for therapists. Yes, I’m very passionate about that. What else made you drawn to this retreat? What were you coming in hopes of and then we’ll talk about what you actually experienced.
[GENNIFER]
So I was well drawn to, well, first of all, I’m just you, just that you were doing it. I don’t want to frost your cookie too much, Dawn, but I’d like, if there’s people who said to me, I’m doing this, I’d be like, I’m not going to. I just really appreciate how grounded and passionate you have this combination of being spiritual and passionate, but also really pretty salt to the earth in a real person. I really like feeling like the rubber meets the road, too, like there’s like tangible, reliable thing.
[DAWN]
That is like one of the nicest compliments I’ve ever received. I’m going to hold onto that?
[GENNIFER]
Yes. I mean, I’m actually thinking, because I live in Boulder there, I have people that I went to Naropa, who may offer something like this. I would think I’m definitely not going through that. So that you were doing it, that I know that you love the outdoors and I know you had actually been, I think about, I’m thinking about doing this particular place or whatever and I knew that you were going to pick somewhere beautiful. So just at the bare minimum, I knew that you would likely bring in therapists who were amazing because they would be like, you’re a brethren of sorts, like the people who are attracted to you.

And it was outside. Then I know enough to know that when I don’t slow down, I can’t hear myself or we talked about the retreat. Sometimes we call it hearing God or spirit or the divine, but the voice that comes through me or from me or whatever it is that knows how to do my life, that knows the next step, that knows how to be with what’s just right here that just knows is so much easier to find and to use as my guide when I take time to be quiet and listen to it and let it come. It’s not actually the thing you can go choosing.
[DAWN]
It’s so true. And Gen, with personalities like ours or group practice owners in general, like we are used to going, going, going, getting things done making things happen. So, but yet I also know you are very into meditation and spiritual realm and so even for you to say, it’s hard for me to slow down and listen to that voice, I’m glad you said that because I think so many people can relate to that, even myself included. Even though I value it and teach it, I still have to push myself to slow down so I can hear that voice too. So, yes tell me, when you got there, were you able to experience that in some way or how did that happen for you? Because I know we were all so excited to be there with other therapists that it was sometimes it was hard to be solo on some of it.
[GENNIFER]
Yes. You had, I think several people spoke to like, boy, there’s not a lot in this schedule. There’s some big chunks of solo time. And I think, I just imagine being like almost daunting, like, oh crap, I don’t spend that time with myself. So being into meditation, so the things I do for myself that are really good for myself and they’re not negotiable, I have meditation, I do small meditation every day and I do go to the gym or I do some exercise where I sweat. But I have gotten them just how I’m talking. You can even hear I do them. I’m like, I’m going to do it. I sit down and meditate.

Like, of course, even like three minutes of meditation, I’m like, I’ve the universe. I sat in my room in the morning with my cup of coffee and watercolored the snow in the pine trees. And the combination, my whole life, I have been just totally enamored with the color of green that is in a pine tree, like a pond, a pine against a Bluebird sky. Those two colors together to me, I don’t know what it is. It’s like, I love, I don’t know if you know, I love home décor and decorating and all this stuff and to be like God universe, you made this, got that. It has almost like a rainbow in it. So I painted that and, I didn’t this rainbow. I mean, I did —[crosstalk].

That is something that I don’t do in my life. I did, I was actually thinking about, like before I was married and before I had a kid, I would just alone. [crosstalk] So there was something that came to me that was accumulative. Like, so even if I spent 30 minutes meditating a day, there’s something about having two hours in an hour, two hours, three hours, and then two hours. I’m like, oh my God, all of a sudden, it settled and then it settled more. Then it settled my insight, settled and settled. Then it was just, oh, there’s a lot of space in here.

Oh, I can breathe. I think you saw at the end of the retreat, also my head was like a vacuum. All that space was like, I had all these ideas were, oh my gosh, total clarity, boom, boom, boom. I’m going to do this and this and this. I’ve been like trying to think through these things for months about what I want my next steps to be and when I finally just put it down, they actually just derived, like they were already there and I was so trying to do them and I couldn’t even find them.
[DAWN]
I think, yes. You mentioned two huge things, like I think just slowing down. First of all, the creativity is able to be tapped into the watercolors, but then not only creativity, but just how ideas just are more clear, like creativity and clarity for me also. I don’t have them when I’m busy and hustling. It’s I need that slow down time. So yes, I love that you said that, but you said it so much better, just the settling and the settling and the settling.
[GENNIFER]
How many layers down? They say it takes three days in the wilderness to reset your soul.
[DAWN]
Ooh, I love that.
[GENNIFER]
So whenever I would do backpacking, I always make sure we do three days. I try and do three nights because I think I get interrupted. But if we can get to three nights, like you just come out being like three days of like less stimulus. Oh I have those. I’ve been thinking about this thing a lot lately. We have much going in. We’re constantly consuming with our eyes, with our ears, with our perception, intuition. We’re consuming, consuming, consuming, consuming. We don’t have space to create from, we don’t even have space to hear, let alone to put out. Like we’re constantly engaging with the thing in front of us and taking things in rather than making space and letting the stuff come out. So that’s what this was. This was the opportunity to have what is already in me come forth and invite it.
[DAWN]
I love that. I love that. I mean, I was going to ask like, what would you tell another therapist? But I feel like you already said it, like go to these retreats.
[GENNIFER]
You got to love that. Go do nothing for three days.
[DAWN]
Yes, and connect with other therapists in beautiful space. Yes, I love it. Well, Gen, anything else you want to share before we end here about the soul care retreat?
[GENNIFER]
I will say having people cook for me. I will also say I’m very pernickety about food. So the food was fine, but every time I got nervous before every single meal being like, I don’t know if it’s going to be always. And I tend to do a thing like, I don’t eat, I don’t eat, I don’t eat all day. Then at night I’m starving and irritable and food is always just this thing that is frustrating to me. That was a really, actually pretty wonderful part of it. It was something I didn’t think about and I didn’t have to use any energy about like besides being like, oh God, will it be right? Then I’m like, oh yes, look, there’s eggs, like normal people
[DAWN]
Yes, the food was good. We just all sat together. That was so fun. We all moved our tables to sit together, but yes, I love not preparing meals for myself or others. It was so nice to have everything. That was the one thing just disconnecting, like no responsibility. Just being there and beautiful place and have everything done for you is so nice.
[GENNIFER]
Yes, that was worth it, but there’s, that’s the base level.
[DAWN]
Well Gen, thank you so much. I know we’ll connect outside of this, so thank you for being here and giving your support on the retreat.
[GENNIFER]
Yes, certainly I am excited for everyone who gets to come to line up. It’s a good thing.
[DAWN]
All right.
[DAWN]
Thank you for listening today to the Faith Fringes podcast. For those of you wanting to take a deeper dive into your own faith journey, you can grab my free email course Spiritual Reflections on my website, faithfringes.com. If you’re a therapist and would want to work with me, I offer sacred space holding for you through my consulting as well as my soul care retreats. To find out more, go to my website or email me at dawn@faithfringes.com.

I live hearing from all my listeners. Drop me an email to tell me what’s on your mind. You can also connect with me on social media. I’m on Facebook and Instagram at Faith Fringes. As always, if you’re enjoying this podcast, I would love it if you could show it by your reviews. Go to Apple Podcasts and leave your review so that others can find this podcast and get curious about their own spiritual journey. Thanks again for listening.

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This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.