In 2002 they were seconded to Heartstream Resources New Zealand. This is an international organization offering care to cross-cultural workers. Within that role Stephen and Jocelyn have traveled extensively,  particularly in Asia, offering support to missionaries and national men and women.  They have presented prayer retreats, seminars and workshops, and counseling.

Their particular input is soul care, through spiritual direction, quiet prayer days, Retreats in Everyday Life, and speaking at mission conferences on the importance of silence, solitude, and rest.

More recently their work has been done via zoom and skypes as they offer spiritual direction and mentoring to many women and men working in often difficult overseas environments.

Stephen and Jocelyn have three adult children and seven grandchildren.

[DAWN GABRIEL]
Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, host of Faith Fringes Podcast, recording live from Castle Rock Colorado, not only where I love to live, but I also work as the owner of a counseling center in the historic downtown. This podcast is a place to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. For those desiring deeper connection with God and engaging their spirituality in new ways, this will be a safe place to allow doubt, questions and curiosity, without judgment. We will be creating intentional space to listen in on other’s faith journeys, whether that is deconstruction or reconstruction, with the hope of traveling alongside you on your own spiritual path. If you’re interested in getting even more out of this podcast, grab my free email course Spiritual Reflections on my websitefaithfringes.com. Welcome to the podcast.

Hello spiritual explorers. Welcome back to Faith Fringes. I hope you’re having a great day today. I am going to be jumping into the subject of spiritual direction. This might be new to some of you as it was to me a few years ago, especially if you grew up in the church, doing Bible studies and youth pastors and pastors and mentors, you probably heard all those terms. But a new one to me was spiritual director. And I started learning about this a few years ago.

And today I’m going to be interviewing a couple Jocelyn and Stephen Head. I actually met them, it’s a really interesting fun story. Two years ago, one of my closest friends asked me to accompany her as she was going to be going to Malaysia to speak at a conference. So I of course said, yes, I was so excited. I had never been to Malaysia so I went with her and it was, I believe a 17 hour flight. We were so excited to be there and when we got there, I just assumed I would sit with her and just kind of be there for support. And what I didn’t expect was that every morning, this woman named Jocelyn got up and led us in some spiritual direction. And it was very different than what you might’ve been led in devotions or a daily devotional or something like that. It was very different. The way she ushered us into the presence of God was so different than anything I had experienced. It was the best way I could explain it. It was a way of just entering in with all of your senses and your creative mind and your mindful mind.

It was so powerful for me that I was so touched and moved and kind of transformed that week as we would listen to her and basically interact with God in such a creative different way that it really impacted me. And throughout that week, I remember we traveled in a van and we went to a Thai restaurant up on this mountain and I got to have some really great conversations with Stephen, her husband and Jocelyn, but I remember talking with them about spiritual direction and just life and had some great conversations in that van and throughout the week. A year after I came back from Malaysia, I actually called Jocelyn up and said, “Hey, I really would love some spiritual direction in my own life. Would you be my spiritual director?” So Jocelyn and I have been meeting for the past year and it again has been transformational as I feel like it’s been so different. So I asked Jocelyn and Stephen to be here today to talk about what is spiritual direction and how’s it different than counseling or how’s it different than listening to a sermon or reading our devotions or anything like that that you might’ve heard in the Christian terms.

So today I am just so excited to introduce them to you. Let me tell you a little bit about them. Stephen and Jocelyn actually were members of the Wycliffe Bible Translators Australia and they were missionaries in Papa, new Guinea, Australia and New Zealand. In 2002, they began Heartstream Resources, New Zealand and where they live. They have experience facilitating and speaking at retreats, missions, conferences, seminars, and workshops. They do those both locally and internationally, and they also are both involved in mentoring and counseling leaders in the Christian ministry. I would love for you to just listen in as we talk and they describe the differences of what spiritual direction is and isn’t.
[DAWN]
So welcome to the podcast, Stephen and Jocelyn.
[JOCELYN HEAD]
Thank you, Dawn.
[STEPHEN HEAD]
Thank you, Dawn.
[JOCELYN]
It’s very exciting for us to be with you and to be able to spend some time chatting with you and reminiscing on times we spent together in Malaysia.
[STEPHEN]
Oh, that bus drive. Didn’t they go up the mountain somewhere?
[DAWN]
Yes, it was really high. It was a long drive, like an hour, I think.
[STEPHEN]
Yes, we talked a lot.
[DAWN]
Yes, I remember that was awesome. So I think the thing I’m most excited about today is this whole realm of spiritual direction and spiritual formation. At least when I went to a seminary, I never heard of those terms until like the last 10 years. It’s been kind of new and I just really want my listeners to be able to understand, like, what is spiritual direction and spiritual formation? What does that mean? Especially if we’ve been brought up more in a certain religion, we might not have heard of that. So I think Jocelyn, you had mentioned, you wanted to start speaking about that part?
[JOCELYN]
Yes. Spiritual direction came to my attention probably about 25 years ago. A friend of mine in Australia had set up a spiritual direction and training school in Victoria in Australia and I was curious as to what spiritual direction was about. As she talked to me about it and gave me some insight into what spiritual direction is about, I thought this is something that I would like to pursue sometime. Spiritual direction is about intimacy with God. It’s about relationship with God and the relationship and the intimacy comes about spending time with the spiritual director. The term spiritual director can be a little bit misleading at times, because as a spiritual director, and I’ve subsequently been trained in that field, I’m not there to direct or tell you how to live your life or how to become more spiritual. The word direction is to do with your direction toward God.

And the main director in this conversation is actually the spirit. So, as I, as a spiritual director, perhaps would listen to you, I would be listening to what you’re talking about, which can be any topic that you choose to bring. So I’m listening to you, but I’m also listening to the spirit so that I am aware of what is happening and being able to give you the capacity through asking questions, to go on a deeper experience with God. So the time in spiritual direction is really about you, and I’ll call you the ‘directee’, noticing how God might be present to you or absent to you. It’s helping you to be aware of experiences that you might be having with God and how you can expand those experiences. It’s about deepening relationship with God and during the time of the spiritual direction session, having enough space and silence, to be able to hear the voice of God speaking to you. So it’s about relationship with God. It’s about learning to live in an intimate relationship with God and how to live in everyday life, out of that experience of relationship and intimacy.
[DAWN]
Yes. So I’m hearing different words like intimacy and silence and experiencing, and it sounds so different than like a to-do list, a Bible study, a discipline. It sounds very different than that.
[JOCELYN]
Yes, fortunately. As I was growing up, I was very much involved in church and in Bible study and making sure that I had my quiet time in a particular way, but I found over the years that that wasn’t satisfying and wasn’t really meeting my need. And I thought there has to be something more to this spiritual journey than what I’d discovered through church, through my quiet times that I would have, and then feel guilty if I didn’t have. A lot of guilt was associated with my spiritual upbringing and was I pleasing God and had I done it enough and particularly in the role of mission, have I done enough? Is God pleased with me? So as I came into the discipline of being with a spiritual director, all of those things were not mentioned. What was mentioned was stopping, breathing, being still, and what was so lovely was being able to, without any sort of condemnation bring into this conversation aspects of my life that I hadn’t felt free to bring into a counseling session.

So I was able to talk about my anger, my anger at God, my anger at my life, my anger at the church. I was able without any condemnation from anybody, the person who was with me, to talk about any aspect of God. And what was so lovely for me was that this person just held my story and allowed me to delve deeper and to not be asked about my quiet time, not being asked about some of those things that previously would have been asked, but being held in the love of God and being held in the love of this person who was with me and from that came this deepening experience and freedom, freedom with prayer that I’d not discovered before.
[STEPHEN]
Yes, just adding to that, I grew up in a very environment, although a different denomination. And the real struggle for me in my growth was that it was black and white and the boundaries were fixed, which is one way to live your life. And I discovered that when I stepped over the boundary I’d be very quickly made aware of the fact that I’d backslidden or rebelled or because you’re this, you can’t do that. And that’s incredibly restrictive and actually for me and many others, since of course, we’ve found that this like a shackle because it tends to prescribe, this is how you grow with God. This is how you are known by your fruits, which is not a bad thing, except the fruits didn’t always match what the ministry was. So this became a real issue. And as I’ve come into more into what Jocelyn is talking about, then I feel much freer to grow, and I feel much freer to have doubts and not necessarily have to question as to answer the question.
[DAWN]
Yes. And that’s how I’ve experienced it when I meet with Jocelyn. It’s like, we don’t even talk about theology. We don’t talk about a to-do list. It’s very experiential as far as like the five senses. And it kind of just like blew my mind. I’m like, how have I not experienced God in this way before? I guess I was so used to experiencing him in my head. I mean, I studied theology, different types of theology. I have degrees and it was very educational and my faith was deep, but this spiritual direction was definitely more like a creative and five senses. And it was, I felt more alive and intimate, is a great word for it. And I was just like, I need more. So, yes and I think Stephen, something you brought up, you said like you guys were different denominations and this, tell me more about the spiritual direction. Do you have to have theology background and denomination? Does that even come into it?
[STEPHEN]
No. And I just want to make a comment on what you said about the theology and you spoke very well about that because it really, it addressed my head. So I knew a lot of verses and I knew a lot of scripture and still do, and actually I’m very grateful for that, but it missed my heart. It missed my person. And one of the verses that has become very pivotal really in what we do is where Jesus says, love the Lord your God, with all your heart, your soul, your mind, your strength. And we realize now then as we read scripture, when Jesus, and those who wrote scripture, when they talk about the person, they’re talking about us as being interconnected. We aren’t just a mind. And so, no, you don’t have to be a particular domination. You don’t have to have theological training, but what we do have to be able to do is sit with people where they are and where they’re feeling either comfortable or uncomfortable and ask questions in a way that helps to discover what is the relationship or is not their relationship with God.

I’ll give you an example. I sat with a mission director a number of years ago, and it was about the family that this church wanted to send in the mission. And he said, “But I’m not sure they’re ready.” I said, “Well, what makes you think that?” And he said, “Well, when I asked them about their Bible study and prayer, their answers don’t satisfy me.” I said, “Well, maybe you’re asking the wrong question.” And he looked at me a bit astonished because his denomination was very much into it. So I said, “What about asking them, how do they see God in their daily life? In what way does God come to them?” I never heard any more about them, but I know their family went into mission and I think there’s still are. So it was that sense of not so much what do you do but how do you experience God?
[JOCELYN]
And over the years, we’ve worked a lot with people who are in mission and in leadership and I, myself, because I have been involved in mission, as you said, Dawn, for many, many years, and the God that I became acquainted with, I found to be not easily approachable. And I think that as I’ve, well not, I think I know as I’ve talked with many others who are involved in the church or involved in mission, that God has become unapproachable. And there is quite often a fear that God is looking over their shoulder and perhaps God can be a punishing goal. And that is a God that I had lived with for a lot of years. So to be able to experience God in this new way through someone who was actively listening and not condemning, but holding my story.

So I sacredly made a huge difference when I first came into spiritual direction and have that discipline for myself. I had just returned from working overseas and I was in a really bad way when I came back. I was in a place of depression and burnout, and I was feeling really angry. I was feeling angry at the church. I was feeling angry at the mission. I was feeling angry as I looked at my children and the family and what seemed to be happening for them. And God felt very unapproachable. I felt like I didn’t want to pray. I certainly didn’t want to go to church because being in church, it just seemed to exacerbate the pain that I was feeling. And I remember talking to someone about this who I thought I could trust and I was telling them a little bit about what was going on for me and their response was, “Well, God is good.” And I thought, what a stupid answer?

You haven’t listened to my story, you haven’t listened to my pain. I don’t see anything good about God at the moment. So I thought, I didn’t know who I can trust with my story. And as I said earlier, I went into counseling and I felt too afraid to bring up this story of God, because I thought, what if this person also says to me, “Well, God is good,” when I’m not experiencing that? So it was a great relief to discover another way of having someone listen to me. So I went to counseling and to spiritual direction at the same time. And both of those were helpful for me, but I found that when I was with the spiritual director, that my journey to wholeness and wellness moved along much more quickly because of the chance I had to sit with my experience and to have this person listen to my story of anger and to hold that story and weep with me and get me to draw about that story and to put myself into this story.

And most of the pictures to start off with were black and they had fires in them and I was like a small creature down in the corner, afraid of all of this black and this fire. And that’s what it felt like. But as she listened to me and allowed me to continue talking and to weep and to say things that needed to be said, there was this new way of being with God. And then as I trained in my course to become a spiritual director and interestingly enough, I started my course while I was still feeling pretty angry at God, it was during that time when I learned about silence and stillness, that the spirit of God was able to come and do something in my heart. As I wandered in gardens and looked at God in creation, as I sat beside likes and watch the ducks and felt the breeze on my face and realize that prayer is sitting by a lake. Prayer is allowing the breeze, which for me, was the spirit of God to blow on me.

Gradually I began to realize that every breath I take is actually the breath of God. So often I will just stop and become aware of my breathing and realize that one of the names for God is breath of life. So each time I breathe, I’m breathing God and allowing that breath to fill me in. So this God who seemed so unapproachable, all of a sudden became as close as my breath and a very, very safe God and one whose presence I enjoy being in. And one who embraces me and holds me and is as close I said, as my breath.
[DAWN]
Yes. The intimacy there. I can hear you talking like that word you used earlier. That is coming up now, as you’re talking about it, talking about Him.
[JOCELYN]
Yes. So in relation to church, I stopped going for a long time. It was just too difficult. But as I grew in this intimacy with Jesus, I learned ways of returning to church and using what I’ve learned and was living with to be continuing experience within the four walls of a church building. And it became much more inviting and a much safer place. And I think safety is what we all need as we go on this journey of faith, a safe place to talk about what is actually going on, because I think often we’re frightened to bring up what is actually going on and it’s so easy to put on and appearance of yes, everything is fine when actually everything is not fine.
[DAWN]
Yes. And I think I’ve talked about that a lot already on other episodes of how sometimes church, because they’re run by humans, they get caught into that. We have to put this appearance on and we have to look a certain way, figuratively look a certain way. So yes, I definitely agree with that. We need to have a place of safety. And this is the fascinating part for me is I’ve always, when I went to get my master’s in counseling, I still had the strong faith and I did get it from a seminary and a Christian college. I mean master’s degree. But what happened is, as I started sitting with clients a lot of times as therapists, ethically, we are not allowed to bring in spirituality or religion. It has to be based on what the client wants. So actually, Stephen, this is what you and I were talking about in the van, in Malaysia on the way to that Thai restaurant or on the way back, actually.

I remember talking a lot about, I felt like there was a place I could go to with clients, but there was still a missing piece if I couldn’t bring in the spirituality. And it was hard for me and I was really wrestling with that. And then interestingly enough, I got trained in something called EMDR and sorry, this is a long explanation, but what EMDR does is it uses the senses and it goes back into somebody’s trauma and the bilateral stimulation helps them desensitize to trauma and helps them move through like the past. And as I was doing that, I did have some people who did want me to integrate faith into that. And those sessions were the most beautiful and healing sessions and I was like, there’s something about this whole other realm of the senses. And a lot of times therapy is talk therapy, and we didn’t learn a lot about body awareness and body sensations.

So I started piecing that together and then after my trip to Malaysia, I started integrating it even more into sessions as clients would want that. It’s so powerful, but I think some therapists feel like they can’t bring in spirituality. So all that to say is that it’s also why I’m so passionate about this podcast, because I can talk about it. Because it’s not about me being a therapist. It’s about me talking about spirituality and I can talk about it as long as I want. So, anyway, I just, as you were saying that Jocelyn, when you were saying you’ve had a safe place to like unpack all this anger, I was like, I wish, I do think there are peers can do that, especially if they say I’m a Christian therapist. But even then I feel like people don’t go into this spiritual realm as much. And anyway, I’m going off on tangents, but that’s kind of what’s coming up as I’m hearing you. Like, it’s like a mix for me. I mixed counseling and spiritual direction. Now is where I’m at.
[STEPHEN]
Well, that actually is a bit of a lead into something that’s been running around in my mind, which is, I don’t see spiritual direction as in place of counseling, but maybe even in a practice like yours, I suspect that if there were spiritual directors there, then to me, it’s sort of works hand in glove. One of the things I struggled with for a while, actually in talking with pastorally, with missionaries was I had the same thing as you. I would get to a certain point and I have no idea where to go then, because for some reason it was difficult for, well, I think I know the reason. It was difficult for missionaries to talk about their spiritual life. And one of the reasons I finally realized was there was fear in that because there’s a lot of not measuring up.

There’s a verse in Romans that talks about, I forget the exact statement, but that verse can be used to actually stir me, actually stir me measuring up. And in fact, of course, that’s why Jesus said, “I’m not doing away with the commandments, but there are inadequate and are inadequate because nobody could measure up.” I realized when I listened to Justin explaining what spiritual direction was, I then like you found, I had questions that I could ask that were not leading questions in the sense of directing, but even a simple question as someone struggling with an issue would be, is there any sense of God in this view? And there might’ve been, but actually they’ve made a whole difference to how I approached people. And my own approach is sort of a combination of pastoral counseling and spiritual direction. It’s a mix of both.
[DAWN]
Yes. And I think it’s so powerful. I have three therapists on my team who can very easily mix that and it’s, yes, they’re very full with clients and people love it. Because I do think we are holistically like our spiritual souls, like embody everything and we miss it so many times. So at least, and for me personally, that’s what I’ve been experiencing over the last couple of years as I’ve engaged more in spiritual direction.
[JOCELYN]
Yes, I think you are talking about using your senses and in this practice that I have of being a spiritual director that is a very important component of how I am with people. So I’m trained in the Ignation way of spiritual direction and St. Ignatius who lived back centuries ago, discovered God. In his discovery of God, he used to picture himself in some of the stories of the Bible. So for example, he might picture in his mind or imagine his mind, the story of Bartimaeus who was blind. So in his imaginings and I go into that prayer too, he would imagine himself being that beggar and what it was like to be there on the road side to listen to the jostling of the crowd around him, perhaps even to be aware of his, the raggedness of his clothes as he touched himself and wondering as I’m with people, what is your blindness? What is it that stopped you seeing what’s going on around? And what is the voice that you hear that is all around you? What are the noises that you hear in your head that keep you distracted?

And then as Bartimaeus realizes there’s something in his sense that he realizes that Jesus is coming and something within him wants him to call out. So I will perhaps say to someone, what is within you that is wanting to call out? What is your longing? What is your desire? So often I’ll say my longing, my desire is to grow in intimacy with Jesus, to know Jesus. And in the bottom, I had a story, Bartimaeus as calls out, “Lord have mercy on me, Lord have mercy on me.” And the crowd around him says, “Oh, you can’t do that. You can’t call out to him. Be quiet, be quiet.” And it’s very easy for our own voices or the voices of the crowds outside or the people we’re trying to please that stop us, actually voicing what we’re wanting from Jesus. But he didn’t allow them to stop. And he called out again. So the deep longing in his heart, and often the deep longing in our hearts, lets us call out again. Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy. And then this crowd, who he can still hear are told by Jesus to bring him.

So he throws off his cloak, he feels his cloak, he throws it off. He walks and comes to Jesus in a stumbling way. And in the midst of all of this he would be aware of sounds. He would be aware of the day. He would be aware of the voice of Jesus. He would be aware of the crowds. And then as he comes to Jesus and as I’ve come to Jesus, and as I bring others to Jesus, Jesus says about him as well, “What do you want?” And that is a question that is asked of you and it’s asked of me, well, what do I really want? And those questions aren’t asked of us very often, those questions of Jesus. And for Bartimaeus may, as it was to receive his sight. And maybe for me, and maybe for you, it’s this, I really want to see you, Jesus. I really want to see you. So in the midst of all of this and in my being with someone, I will get them to notice, where is this longing come from? Touch the part of your body, where you feel this longing. So I will often find someone putting their hand, maybe on their chest, or they may put their hand on, just below their throat, because this is where the longing comes from.

And I say, well, let’s just leave your hand there for a moment and be aware of that longing. Allow your body to participate in that belonging and just sit in silence and be aware and notice that longing saying nothing. So in an experience like that when I’m with a directee, I may sit there for three or four minutes with this longing, this touching, a body awareness of what is going on. So the senses of hearing and touch and taste and smell are really important as this body experiences a prayer that have been overlooked for so long and are now being given as gifts to us and experience and be with.
[DAWN]
Yes, it’s definite slowing down of the noise of the daily grind. It’s a slowing down and noticing and being aware of, yes, where are you in this? And where is God meeting you in this? And that’s what I’ve often experienced as, you know Jocelyn, as I come into a meeting with you, and I’m all like hopped up and like hyper and usually you start with the relaxation to get me calmer because I’m usually like running around from the day an my shoulders are tense, but then as we talk and I’m going into it, like I always leave feeling very peaceful and very, very grounded in who I really believe I am, grounded on my faith and grounded in the spirituality of that. So, yes, I can just say that from my own personal experience, t is a slowing down, which is so needed.

And in the counseling world that’s called mindfulness or meditation, but it’s very different when you have a spiritual director leading you and saying, where’s the spirit, where’s Jesus in this? And I’ve had many. My favorite, one of my favorite ones is when I forget the passage you shared with me Jocelyn, but I all of a sudden I’m like walking in a river with Jesus, and then we’re like sitting in a hammock, like talking. It was like, so I’m like, okay. And I told my husband and my kids at dinner later that day, and my husband was like, “Really, a hammock? Like, you’re just like swinging in hammocks?” And like, yes, like it’s totally different than I’ve experienced Jesus before, but it’s just so yes, your mind just goes.
[STEPHEN]
Maybe one of the misunderstandings we have about Jesus, as we read the gospels, it’s easy to say He did all these miracles, He laid into the Pharisees and et cetera, but they walked everywhere. And I’m sure that as they walk, they would probably tell funny stories about see that donkey over there, that crazy. And we, I think apart from the teaching that we actually have, I’ll bet you that as Jesus and the disciples walked along, they just talked to each other and he was a [inaudible 00:35:10], but I’ll bet you, they’d talk. I just wish that in the new Testament, some words said, “Jesus laughed.”
[DAWN]
Yes. Forget Jesus wept. We want to see Jesus laughed. It’s true. Why do you think that wasn’t in there?
[JOCELYN]
I don’t know. Maybe because rabbis, might’ve, I don’t know. One of the interesting things about the whole aspect of spiritual direction and often misunderstood it’s like spiritual and contemplation and reflection it’s been around for thousands of years. It isn’t something that was discovered in the last 50 years. I mean, one of my stories, one of my favorite scriptures is when Elijah, depressed and burned out, ran into the desert and set in that cave for so long. And it wasn’t until he had sat there long enough to find quiet that God came to him in the quiet. And that’s really a good example of spiritual direction that as we sit, in Papua New Guinea, they have a lovely saying it’s called sit nothing, and what that means is you just sit down and relax and you’d be in the moment, which they’re very good at, and just become aware of what’s around you.

So when people ask us what is, what do you do, we’ll often say it’s soul care. There’s a wonderful story by someone, years ago, an explore it in a particular country. He had all these national people baring all the stuff he needed. And they’d gone for a way when the main bearer said, “Now it’s time we sat down and stopped.” So they sat down and then after about five minutes, the guy in charge said, “Okay, it’s time to go.”” No, no, no, we’re not ready to go yet.” Five minutes, time ago, not ready to go yet. So finally he just shut up. He wasn’t getting anywhere. And then after a few minutes more, they all stood up, put their patch back on and they’re ready to go. And the, whoever he was said to the chief, “Wait, what just happened?” And he said, “Well, we had to sit long enough for our souls to catch up with us.”

And that’s a powerful story, because as you said, you usually come from a busy time and it takes away well for you just to allow your soul to catch up with you because it’s in the soul that the change happens. It’s in that quiet part of us. And I got to confess Dawn. I really still struggle with that and I try to fix. I’m absolutely convinced that the more I can do it, the more I can find rest.
[JOCELYN]
One of the ways that I sometimes bring people to stillness and silence, because it is difficult is to use the verse, be still and know that I am God. So I will say be still and know that I am God, be still and know that I am. Be still and know. Be’ still. Be. He still and know that I am God. Be still and know that I am. Be still and know. He still. Be.
[DAWN]
Even as you’re saying it, I’m just taking a deep breath.
[JOCELYN]
Even in the saying of it, there is something stilling in it. For me and I think for you, it’s very invitational, especially in the world where doing nothing is not admirable. Being busy is admirable, but to say, I’m not doing anything that I’m just sitting is not admirable, but the invitation from Jesus is to come and sit and to get in the hammock and, and lay and enjoy each other’s company. And I think it might’ve been the story where he says, come and see where I’m staying. And what do you want?
[DAWN]
Yes. That was it. I’m like, I want to walk in the river barefoot. Well, because yes, again, I’ve talked a lot. One of my pillars of the podcast is trail, transformational trail moments, or really nature; how I find God in nature. And you mentioned that like sitting by a lake and the wind. And that to me is a place to be still because if you turn your phones off and you’re in nature, that’s the five senses. And I feel like you can discover God there very much.
[STEPHEN]
One way to look at it too, is to think of the six sense, that soul part of this indefinable place, where when we can get the, it’s like, that’s where that peace comes from. And that’s why for many of us, it’s so difficult to get there because, but that is where in a sense, God is, if you can say, God is there. Of course, God is all around us and within us. So, but in that particular place is where the most intimate relationship comes from. So we really have six senses.
[DAWN]
Yes. I’ve never thought of it that way. Well, and you mentioned soul care, which would be the six that sense, can you say more? Like, how do you, what does that look like to care for your soul in the sixth sense?
[STEPHEN]
It seems to me, that’s what the approach of spiritual direction and contemplation and reflection is about. It’s about most of us know we have this place within us that you can’t find it in an x-ray or any way. It’s just there. It’s like this integral path that I think most of us recognize doesn’t die. Many people say, “Well, I go somewhere, but I don’t know where.” Well, that’s the soul part. It’s that, most religions have some belief in the soul continuing on past death. And we, of course believe that as well. So soul care is acknowledging that the deepest, most relevant part of our existence is the spiritual part. And I’m not talking Christianity, I’m not talking any religion because we all have it. Buddhists have it, Muslims have it, Hindus have it, but it is that part, it’s that looking after ourselves. It’s like that group of national people that had to sit down long enough to find their soul catching up, because until the soul caught up with them, they were not whole, they were not able to continue the journey.

And that’s what we do as we ask people questions like, do you have a sense of God in your life? And the answer might be yes, the answer might be no. Well, have you ever, in that sense of a spiritual part of you that’s larger than yourself? Well, yes. What was it like? So that’s what I understand soul care is. We can go to a gym for our bodies, we can go to university for our minds, and we can do brain exercises and we can go and get counseling for health, emotional needs. But it said soul care that we actually need that we’re talking about today and what you’re then discovering for yourself though.
[DAWN]
Yes. Wow. Well, I know we are getting close to the end of our time. I just have really enjoyed this conversation though. Anything you can think of that you would want to say to the listeners, if they are wondering about spiritual direction or soul care, like where could they start or what would be a great place to start for them or anything at all?
[JOCELYN]
I think any place for many of us contains a certain amount of risk or courage because speaking for myself, it was so far outside of my comfort zone that, you know, one of the things that we talk about quieting your mind and often even that phrase, we’ll say to people, this is like Eastern mystics stuff, isn’t it? And of course it’s not, but because it’s so scary to do something different particularly, and I’ll be specific, particularly for those of us who have grown up conservative, Evangelicals, because we were taught to think when it says not to feel and that wasn’t actively done. It was just done by the way people preach sermons and so on. So the other thing that I find is that people think that as being selfish, particularly as, I can’t speak for other religions, but Christians are supposed to be out there winning the world and evangelizing. So I look after myself, isn’t that being selfish?

Well, no Jesus said, “Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.” “Love others, and what comes next, as yourself?” Well, the reality is if I don’t love myself, I can’t love you very well because it’s coming out of my lack and coming out of my lack of experience with God. So all I can say is take a risk, maybe instead of a Bible reading, a prayer tomorrow morning, just look at one verse and then just sit with it for five minutes. Maybe get up and look at the sunrise if you get up earlier than I do. Take five minutes just to sit nothing, like the Papua New Guinea and say, just sit in a space and don’t expect to become a Saint overnight.
[DAWN]
Yes. So slow down, let go of some expectations and sit and experience.
[STEPHEN]
I have a saying that says, make haste slowly.
[JOCELYN]
Maybe you would like to come back to that prayer that I prayed and as you approach the morning or as you approach the day, say that prayer, be still and know that I am God, be still and know that I am, be still and know, be still, be and then take five minutes. Or if five minutes is too long, take two minutes and breathe and allow yourself to slow down and to notice. And it’s easy for us to think, oh, I can’t do that. I’m so distracted by so many things. I think about what I’ve got to do for the day, or think about where I’ve got to go shopping or where I’ve got to pick the children up and the meeting I’ve got after this meeting. Distractions come to us all. And one thing that I consider with distractions is if it seems important perhaps jot it down and come back to it later, but just let it pass. Say, oh yes, I’m distracted again. And think how joyous God is when He says you turn back and come back to that stillness and quiet again. So don’t be afraid of distractions or use that as an excuse to not come because it’s always easy to make these excuses, but the invitation actually is from Jesus to come. And He doesn’t have time how long we sit in silence. He’s just a margin. So for two minutes, let’s be still and breathe.
[DAWN]
I love that. I hope people yes, can really put that into practice and take that to heart tomorrow when they wake up. If somebody wants to get ahold of you too, and maybe, I don’t know if you’re open for more spiritual directees, how would they get ahold of you or how do they find you?
[STEPHEN]
Well, Jocelyn’s pledge is full. I’d be happy if they get in touch with me. Dawn will send you the email, I guess.
[DAWN]
All right, I’ll put it in the show notes, that’ll work.
[JOCELYN]
Also, I don’t know if you’d want to put in show notes. I talked about ways of prayer. And I haven’t really talked about those ways of prayer, Lectio Divina there is using your imagination in prayer. There is stillness prayers. I’ve got resources that if you wanted those to be available to show notes that can give your listeners an idea on ways of prayer, that may be helpful for them, that I’ve found helpful for me.
[DAWN]
I’ll put that in the show notes and on my website with the link to you. Yes, I’ll quote you on that. Thank you. Well, yes, it was so nice talking and I look forward to talk to you guys. Thank you again for being on the podcast today.
[JOCELYN]
Thank you for your invitation, Dawn. It’s been really, really lovely.
[DAWN]
Yes.

Thank you for listening today at Faith Fringes Podcast. If you want to explore more of your own faith journey, I offer my free eight-week email course called Spiritual Reflections, where you take a deeper dive into your own story included as a journaling workbook that has guided exercises. So if you want to explore more of what you were brought up to believe, or even look at where you may have been disillusioned or hurt, but yet still deep down you desire to authentically connect with God, then this course is for you. Just go to faithfringes.com to sign up.

Also, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email and tell me what’s on your mind. You can reach me at dawn@faithfringes.com.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one.

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