WHITNEY OWENS ON WHEN A PAINFUL EXPERIENCE WITH THE CHURCH IMPACTS YOUR PROFESSION

[DAWN GABRIEL]
Hi, I’m Dawn Gabriel, host of Faith Fringes Podcast, recording live from Castle Rock Colorado, not only where I love to live, but I also work as the owner of a counseling center in the historic downtown. This podcast is a place to explore more than the traditional norms of the Christian culture. For those desiring deeper connection with God and engaging their spirituality in new ways, this will be a safe place to allow doubt, questions and curiosity, without judgment. We will be creating intentional space to listen in on other’s faith journeys, whether that is deconstruction or reconstruction, with the hope of traveling alongside you on your own spiritual path. If you’re interested in getting even more out of this podcast, grab my free email course Spiritual Reflections on my websitefaithfringes.com. Welcome to the podcast.

Welcome. I’m hoping you guys are having a great day and I am so excited to be here today. I have a very special guest .Who’s actually a good friend of mine. Whitney Owens is a licensed professional counselor and private practice consultant, and I think she is such an amazing consultant. I can’t wait for you guys to meet her. She lives in Savannah, Georgia, where she owns a group private practice, Water’s Edge Counseling. In addition to running her practice, she offers individual and group consulting through Practice of the Practice. Whitney places a special emphasis on helping clinicians start and grow faith-based practices. She hosts a podcast to help faith-based practice owners called Faith in Practice podcast. Whitney has spoken at the Licensed Professional Counselors Association of Georgia’s annual convention, as well as in Maryland. She has spoken the past two years at Practice of the Practice’s Killin’It Camp conference.
[DAWN]
She has also been interviewed about mental health issues on several media outlets, including WSAV in Savannah and in the Atlanta Georgia Constitution. Whitney is a wife and a mother of two beautiful girls. Welcome Whitney.
[WHITNEY OWENS]
Thanks Dawn. It’s good to be here.
[DAWN]
Yes. I was so excited to interview you today, because we always have a good time when we talk and I feel like today’s topic is going to be just really cool to jump into and kind of discuss because we actually, some of the stories you’re going to share took place when we knew each other and were friends in Colorado.
[WHITNEY]
That’s right.
[DAWN]
Yes. So Whitney, why don’t you start sharing a little bit about how we knew each other, anything you want to share about that? Sometimes it’s a funny story.
[WHITNEY]
Of course. Yes. Always good when we get together. So funny story, because we met at a psychiatric hospital. No, we were not patients at the hospital. We both worked there. I was working in the administrative kind of intake area of the hospital, so bringing the patients in and Dawn was working in the partial hospitalization program. And one day I went over to the Chick-fil-A, as I did often to get my lunch. I had to de-stress from the craziness of the hospital and Dawn, I guess you were walking in or out at the same time I was and we recognized each other from working there. I think either you commented on my purse or I commented on yours. I think you commented on mine and I was like, “Oh wow. She seems cool.” And then you said, “Let’s go to lunch sometime.” And we kind of started a friendship at that point. is that how you remember it?
[DAWN]
It is, yes. I remember walking in or out of somewhere near the psych hospital we worked at and I just remember being like, “Oh, let’s get together.”
[WHITNEY]
Yes. Well, and that’s something I’ve always loved about you. You’re so friendly and genuine with people and made me feel very comfortable. And I also thought you were pretty cool. So I was glad to have you as a friend. And then after we got to know each other we ended up going to a private practice together because one of the medical providers, the med providers decided to open our own practice. That’s a whole another story, but it was through that, that you brought me with you and I was so grateful. Honestly, it’s just like, that’s another God moment in my life where I was really praying for an open door to do private practice because I was just so unhappy at the hospital, not really getting to do the clinical work I wanted to do. And it was at that time you invited me to come and we went and did that and you were my supervisor, because I still wasn’t fully licensed yet. And then I was there, I don’t know, eight weeks, I think, maybe something like that and you had just had your first baby and was coming off from maternity leave. And then the NP that owned the practice was like, “All right, I’m getting rid of all you guys. Y’all are too expensive. I’m not making enough money,” or whatever the case was. And she called it bloody Monday and she fired all the clinicians in the same day.
[DAWN]
Oh yes. Even you saying that my heart starts racing. It’s still, even though it was what nine-ish years ago. Yes. We just, I mean, we learned so much in that timeframe. I just wish it wasn’t right after I had my first child because it was way too overwhelming, but we did it. We started a group practice together, a very different version of the ones we run now, but we started a group practice together and yes, just learned a ton about how to sit with clients, how to share with a group team. And it was so fun and very growing, I would say.
[WHITNEY]
Oh yes, I feel like I was very fortunate because you and a couple of the other girls were licensed and a little more experienced, had kind of done more clinical work and I didn’t know what I was doing. So I was able to kind of ride your coattails and learned a whole lot about private practice. I probably would have never jumped out on my own and started a practice without you guys. And that really was the foundation for, then I came to Savannah realizing, “Oh, I can do this. I did this in Colorado. I can do it again.” And if we hadn’t had that experience, I wouldn’t be who I am today.
[DAWN]
Yes. I love that. And I feel that Whitney, then you got involved with Practice of the Practice and was mentored and did consulting with Joe. And that kind of turned me on to Practice of the Practice as well. And I’ve just really enjoyed that. So I’m so grateful that we’ve kept in touch and I just really always respected you and your perspective. And I feel like you’re always honest and full of integrity and just authentic and so it was so good to have that connection and referral and it’s changed my life being involved. So I’m just so excited.
[WHITNEY]
Oh, thank you.
[DAWN]
Yes. And I also love that we also share a similar faith journey. Well, not our journey, but our faith and we can talk about that and that’s what made me think of you today; is just to really, you know, dive in and have some real conversation around when are some moments that we have maybe been hurt by the church or by religion that has not matched what we hoped it to be and how that has really impacted our own faith journey. And I’d love to kind of jump into that. I know you have a story you’d like to share about that. So wherever you want to start with that, I’d love to hear more.
[WHITNEY]
Yes, totally. I’m so glad we’re talking about this because it needs to be talked about more often. And that’s what I love about your podcast is being able to talk about some of these things that need to be brought up and talked about in a real way. I have my story ready, but as you were sharing that with me, it kind of took me back to actually a different moment in my life. So after I had, college, I worked at a campus ministry called the Wesley Foundation at the University of Georgia, Go Dawgs, and that was this amazing moment in my life spiritually. Like I worked there for three years, kind of like a missionary basically where we raised support and I served the population at the University of Georgia. we had a campus ministry of a thousand plus students. So we stayed pretty busy.

I felt very close to the Lord. I probably spent hours in prayer every day and just disciplining young women that were in college. It was just this fantastic moment in my life. And then I went off to grad school and life became a little more real. I guess you could say, I kind of came out of my spiritual bubble and joined a church in the Atlanta area, which was a really great church, but I just remember in church feeling so lonely and sad that my relationship with God was different, but also the community that I had had at this campus ministry, which I understand what a special time everybody’s just doing ministry, like not having to do jobs and things.
[DAWN]
So just [inaudible 00:09:13].
[WHITNEY]
That’s right. Yes, and so then when I was at this church, it was like people were too busy to have relationships and that broke my heart. I would go to church every week, I felt like I didn’t know anybody. I guess I just thought, “Oh, you invite people to dinner. You get to know people, you talk about the Lord, you pray for each other.” Like there was no Bible study where I fit in and then I tried to go to a Bible study at like a sister church where I had some people my age and that was just, I didn’t fit in at all. I didn’t have any money. I was in graduate school. They were all buying houses, having kids and just a very different mindset than where I had come from at this campus ministry. So that was the first time I remember just feeling like the church disappointed me because it was just different than I thought it was supposed to be. I had my concept of what church needs to be.
[DAWN]
Yes. As, as you were talking, I was realizing, yes, I think a lot of us can relate. We had an amazing spiritual connecting experience in a community that did really well with community and growing our faith ad then going to another one that has disappointed us and I think holding space for, what does that look like in real life? Because I also worked at universities for five years and it’s so amazing to work at any university. It’s set up well for community, but then you go to a church where families, and I know even in my own life, having two kids has changed how I have been able to do community and working a job that isn’t focused on ministry and, it does, it changes. And it’s kind of like, well, what happens to our relationship with God outside of like a desert, in a community desert versus how community can cultivate our relationship with God. I’ve really had to learn a lot about the difference of the two.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. I totally agree. We have had some similar journeys, just a different way of getting there, but I felt a lot of those things.
[DAWN]
Yes. And so I know I remember a time when you were in Colorado, because I think your husband was going to seminary then, which is what brought you to Colorado, right?
[WHITNEY]
That’s right.
[DAWN]
Okay, and I remember that’s the time we journeyed together. We actually did life together. And I know there was a time where, there was a bigger moment where there was a disappointment with church where you realize this is not what we thought it was going to be.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. So my husband actually got a full scholarship to Denver Seminary, so wild, you know, the way that God does things. And we were living in Atlanta the time and some other disappointments happened actually where we thought he was going to get a full scholarship to a different seminary. And soon as he applied for it, they ran out of money. So our plan that we had to stay in Atlanta and get full rods, did not work and so we kind of started exploring other options. And then my husband applies for this random scholarship that’s available at like nine different seminaries around the nation and it was funny because when they offered him or they did like the initial call and interviewed him at the end, they said, “How likely are you to take this scholarship and go to Denver if you get it?” And he was like, “Oh, I’m pretty likely.’ And they said, “No, we need you to say a hundred percent or we’re not going to give it to you.’ And so he said, “100%.” And then we went to dinner together that night and he said, “Hi, Whitney. I just want to let you know if I get the scholarship, we are a hundred percent going.”
[DAWN]
I don’t think I remember that part of the story. How did you respond to that?
[WHITNEY]
I first actually, I just assumed he wasn’t going to get it. I said, “It’s going to be okay.” And then I was at work. I actually got a job immediately. Actually during my internship, they hired me to work admissions at this residential facility I was working at and then he called me while I was there and was like, “Hey honey, I got this scholarship and we need to move in three weeks.” It’s like, “Gosh, I already have a job. Like what?” So we moved to Colorado. It was really exciting. And I applied for so many jobs and then got the job at the psychiatric hospital. But while we were there in seminary, one of the churches that was really connected to the seminary, we ended up attending that church. Most of the time that we were there and overall I had a really great experience there. The first two or three years, we had fantastic community, especially because a lot of the seminary students and their spouses were there.

So we made a lot of friends through that. I led a couple of Bible studies. I did some teaching on prayer. It was really great. I had a mentor while I was there as well, which I’ve had a really hard time finding mentors at other churches, simply because people don’t invest in that or they don’t have time for it and all those things. And so then my husband had decided, “Okay, I’m going to move forward with ordination. I don’t even know what they call it in that church, but it was something to this effect. And it’s funny because now I see a lot more things now than I saw then, but at the time I didn’t know any different. And so the way that they have the organizational part of ordination, honestly it sucks. But at the time that’s all I knew. So like for example, in their situation, you invite people to a team and that team determines if you’re going to move forward in their ordination process. So they meet with you a couple of times, ask you questions and then they basically write a letter to the pastor who submits it, I guess, to the church at large, if you’re going to move forward in their process of candidacy ordination or not.

Yes, and it was, it was crazy because, so my husband had to pick out three people that would kind of like play this role. And then there was another lady who was in charge of it. So she didn’t necessarily get selected. She was the only one who had any experience whatsoever in making a decision. And then some of the other people that were on the team of course, were people we trusted, people that we thought very highly of. One was a woman that I had been leading a Bible study with that I thought we were good friends and another one was one of our closest friends, my husband’s really, and he was also selected to be on the team because we wanted people that thought well of us and that supported us. And then there was another gentleman on the team who was, I guess you could call him a very spirit filled man, more spirit filled than actual character and you know, looking back on it.

So these people would meet with my husband every few weeks and ask him questions, ask them about his life journey, ask him about things he wanted to do like career wise as being a pastor, you know, strengths, weaknesses, things like that. As this was going along, my husband kept saying to me, “This doesn’t feel right. I think something’s wrong.” And of course I think the world of my husband was like, “No, you’re just paranoid. Everything’s fine. Everyone loves you, yada, yada, yada.” But then that was actually not the case and he was totally accurate. So now I’ve learned that he has the gift of discernment because one night I’m sitting at the apartment. I was actually, hmm, I must’ve been seven months pregnant, something like that at the time with our first child. And I was about to go to Bible study.

The lady that was in this little group, you know, helping decide my husband’s fate, you could say she led the Bible study with me and I’m sitting there and my husband calls and he says, “I got the letter and they’re declining me to move forward” which was horrifically disappointing. And then he brought this letter home to me and it was the most hateful letter I had ever read about my husband, about his giftings, about me and just terrible. I even had several people read the letter, like trusted men, like my mentor and another pastor at the church. And all of them said, “This is really harmful,” the way that this was described.
[DAWN]
Wow. And they waited to put it in a letter? They didn’t even tell him all these months they were meeting with him? They didn’t tell him anything about this?
[WHITNEY]
Yes, well, we didn’t think they had. My husband for sure didn’t think they had. When we got the letter, of course we wanted to do all we could to bring reconciliation and I’ll tell you, I’m one of those people that I think the best of people until they prove me wrong. And so I’m sitting there thinking the best of them like, “Oh, well, surely he didn’t mean it like that.” So for example, one of the things the letter said was that my husband didn’t have any ability to have good social relationships, that he was uncomfortable, or he wouldn’t be able to do ministry well, because he can’t do relationships well.
[DAWN]
Oh my, and I know James. That’s not true.
[WHITNEY]
Well, thank you. Yes, I totally agree. But this was written by someone who was our best friend, like someone that would invite us to dinner all the time. Him and my husband would go out for beers. I was like telling my husband, “Surely that’s not what they meant. Why would your friends say that about you? Like, why would he?”
[DAWN]
Yes, your friend who is social with you, why would he say that you’re not social?
[WHITNEY]
Exactly, exactly. So James was also getting mentored by the pastor at the time. So we spoke with the pastor and said, “We want to work on this. We want to bring reconciliation. Let’s all get together, talk about the words of this letter, and get some clarity here because maybe this was not what they really intended.” So that, I’m just giving you one part of the letter to bring the example to light. But so we all get together and I look at that guy, our friend, and say, “This is what you wrote in this letter.” And the same thing I just said to you, “Hey, this is the person you hang out with. Why are you spending time with my husband if he can’t be friendly or you don’t think he’s relatable?” And he was like, “You know, basically, I’m just trying to be nice to him.”
[DAWN]
Whoa. Oh gosh.
[WHITNEY]
And then when I confronted the woman from our Bible study and said, you know, “The way you just said this, and I would read the letter, I said, you know, the way these words came out are pretty harsh.” And then she said, “Well, we had to say it that way to make sure we made a point.”
[DAWN]
Oh my gosh.
[WHITNEY]
I was like, “I don’t think that’s how the Lord would be talking to somebody.” She also went back to the Bible study because when I got that call, I was like, “There’s no way I’m going to Bible study tonight and seeing this lady.” And so I called the host of the Bible study and just said, “Hey, I’m going to sit this one out. This was a little too painful. I need some time.” And that woman went right to the group and told everyone what had happened.
[DAWN]
Oh man. There’s so many things here that are not okay.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. so it’s a long journey, I mean, months. And it was the darkest time of our lives, hands down. Like my husband really questioned his calling, who he was as a person. I mean, they said in the letter, like, “You don’t have the ability to do ministry. You’re not really a pastor.” They were upset because at some point he said, he felt a hundred percent certain God had called him to ministry. And they said, “Well, if you think something’s a hundred percent, like, that’s not you following God, basically.” He was like, “What?”
[DAWN]
Wow. I mean, such an intimate betrayal is what I’m hearing because these aren’t just people who are interviewing him. These are people who you guys have walked alongside and done ministry and social life with and personal. I mean, I’m just, I mean, I know I heard some of this when we, 10 years ago, but I’m still in shock on how deep the betrayal goes.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. I like that word you just used, intimate betrayal. That’s a really good way to say it. I hadn’t thought of it like that, but yes. I mean, I tried to stay friends with the man’s wife, the man that was friends with my husband, but it just like, I just couldn’t. We had multiple meetings with several of these people. One of them wrote a letter behind our back to the pastor and then accidentally Cc’d my husband and ended up leaving the church over it, because my husband was not “obedient enough to his elders,” which is just another man at the church. And it was just over and over, stuff like that. So we ended up leaving that church over it because we tried to reconcile multiple times and just couldn’t get there. And it was just too painful. And the pastor, even though he’s a fantastic minister, I think he was put in a really bad spot and he didn’t know how to handle it. He’s honestly probably a nine on the Enneagram and so he didn’t know —
[DAWN]
It’s hard as a pastor if he’s a nine. But something that’s striking me as you’re talking, Whitney is, and it’s actually something I do want to focus on sometimes in my podcast, is what I’m hearing is two separate ways of people viewing like what they’re called to faith-wise. And what I heard is, I heard the courage and just the desire from you and James to go and reconcile in the midst of deep betrayal. To me, that is huge. And I feel like that shows true Jesus-like character. And then on the other side, I’m hearing a lot of Christianese jargon, like obedient to your elders type of stuff, and so that’s like, it just popped out at me as two separate ways. And it feels like legalistic on one side and then true, like value centered what we see Christ living, what we have seen His life to be on true sacrifice and relational repair. And so I don’t know. That’s what came to me when you were talking.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. Well, I appreciate you saying that and I totally think that’s the case. In the time it was very confusing.
[DAWN]
Oh, I’m sure because you trusted them. That’s what I’m saying. So intimately connected, I guess I’m wondering like what, as you’re trying to reconcile with them, were they just sticking to their guns, were they not willing to enter into like, why they’re saying this and what’s going on and they just wouldn’t change their mind or repair? Like that’s what’s confusing to me.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. I mean, when I said to that lady, “Is this really how you wanted to say this?” And she said, “Yes, we needed to make a point. This is what we think.” Like if she had just said to me, “You know, Whitney, maybe I should have said it kinder, I’m sorry.” We could have reconciled. But the fact that she was like, I’m going to be cruel and then I’m going to tell you that I’m being cruel and I’m okay with that was not okay for me anymore.
[DAWN]
Oh no. I still am, I personally value relationships in my life that can be real when there has been a discrepancy or a hurt, like in real time, or maybe you have to wait a week or two to figure out the way to say it or to calm down. But to wait after months and then put it, like a strongly worded letter together that just doesn’t seem like friendship to me or authentic community to me, because I feel like authentic community doesn’t mean we’re just being nice to people, but there’s still a kindness in how we confront things. And that’s what I’m wondering, like where is it okay, like to confront? I’m sure you have stories of when you did confront someone in love and in kindness, and it’s not in a strongly worded letter saying, you’re called to God is not correct. Like who are you to say that?
[WHITNEY]
Exactly. And that kind of goes back to us at the beginning. Like now I know that these people were not trained, no one really directed them. They just kind of said what they had to say. I mean, they spoke out of their own pain of their lives and I can see that now and now that I know their journey and their story, like one of them thought he was going to go into ministry and didn’t, so I think he took some of that out on James, you know? I mean, it was a horrific time in my life, but right. Those are usually the moments where we become our strongest, we get the most clarity. And when you look back on it, but at the time it was absolutely terrible. And then we had our baby in the midst of all that, like, it’s actually, what’s God’s gift because it gave us something to be hopeful about, happy about in the midst of like a really dark time.
[DAWN]
Yes, and to kind of say, “I have to back out and focus on the baby right now. I can’t do life because it’s,” yes, I can see that timing, but also like the lack of sleep and the hormone changes. I mean that also doesn’t make it easy to deal with other stuff going on. But yes, something you said about just the intense hurt and now there was so much doubt then, but looking back now, you’re seeing it differently as maybe it really helped define for you and James, what the next steps were or what, I mean, I’m sure you guys had to say, “Well, what are we called to?” And you looked at that. It was a painful process, but tell me more about that process of how you got to the next step.
[WHITNEY]
So after that happened, we thought we were going to be in this specific denomination. We probably were going to stay in Colorado, but because this happened, we really changed our plans and said, “Okay, why are we staying here? Like this isn’t where we want to be. Obviously we don’t want to be a part of a congregation that acts this way.” So then we decided to come back to Georgia. And so my husband applied for 40, 50 plus jobs, I would say in Georgia or in the Southeast. So our families were both here and it’s just so funny to look back and think about, he tells me about this job in Savannah, this church that we’re actually at now. And at the time I had heard of this church because it has a very good reputation. And when he told me about it, I thought, “Dude, there’s no way you’re getting that.”

Just the same way I thought, “There’s no way you’re getting this scholarship. There’s no way you’re getting that job.” But it was just, it’s just been the best place ever for us. And of course he got the job and it was the best thing ever when we got the call and it felt so ordained by God, like in this amazing way, you know, and to just kind of bring things around here. So we’ve been hearing Savannah now for six, seven years, something like that. Time passes, you know, and you’re like, “What just happened?”
[DAWN]
I guess we’re sitting with COVID last year where like we lost a year.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. It’s kind of disoriented. And just last week, actually my husband had to do the ordination process for the Methodist church. So the same thing he did for this other denomination he had to do for the Methodist church. And as you can imagine with trauma, it’s like re-triggering in every kind of way. And this has been going on for a while when my husband had to turn in a bunch of information, get a bunch of interviews done. Even the day of the interviews, I went and took him lunch between these were all Zoom interviews with multiple people asking him questions and he was so discouraged. He was like, “This isn’t going to work out. I can’t do this. No one believes in me.” And I’m like, “Yes, they do. You can do this, you can do this.” And of course I’m praying in the back of my mind, “Oh Lord, you better work this out because I do not know what we’re going to do if this doesn’t work.” And then afterwards, this gentleman, the one that was actually kind of harsh to him on the phone, I think he was just trying to help him, honestly giving him critiques.

You know, we take things so personally because of our past experiences. And so it was just this nasty combination, but he’s the one that called us and said, “You’re in, basically.” And the guy wanted James to put him on speakerphone and said, “Sit down with your wife.” And of course, as I’m hearing him say that, I’m like, “Oh no, we’re about to get bad news. This isn’t going to be good. I got to sit down for this.” And then he basically says “Your husband’s amazing. He’s been approved in all areas. We’re going to get him ordained and yada yada,” and I cried.
[DAWN]
I’m sure.
[WHITNEY]
This man, and I’m not joking, he sounded just like the man that was so mean to us in Colorado.
[DAWN]
Like voice wise or the words he was using?
[WHITNEY]
Oh yes. I didn’t really talk about him a ton earlier, but yes, the voice he was using, the way he talked about the Holy Spirit, the way he talked about ministry sounded just like this other man that had been so hurtful. He was the most hurtful of all. It was so redemptive, like to be like, oh yes, like the same person that sounded awful. This man sounds like, I mean, he’s giving James exactly what we feel like God’s been wanting us to have for 10 years.
[DAWN]
Yes. So redemptive.
[WHITNEY]
Oh yes. And it’s put us in the exact place where, you know, God called us Methodist from the beginning. We both grew up Methodist and we went to all these other places and now we’re kind of coming back to our roots, the Methodist church. Who knows what’s going to happen, but we’re going to be a part of it, whatever it is.
[DAWN]
I didn’t realize that was your roots. That’s cool too. I mean, it’s just another piece. It reminds me, I feel like a lot of times, I forget, sometimes I look at God is so big and so unreachable, but then He reminds us of how personal He can be. And just in the story that you shared of the voice and the wording was the same and it was so redemptive, I feel like that was such a personal connection that God wanted to give James and you and just how personal He can be in His redemptive story. And the Methodist thing, I feel like that’s another very personal specific to you guys of bringing that full circle redemption around.
[WHITNEY]
Yes, and so then when we think about the church and how does it model Christ and how does it sometimes not, and all that we’ve been through, it’s going back to those personal moments with the Lord that remind me of His goodness and His authenticity, just that He’s there with me no matter what, even when the church does or doesn’t exemplify Him. So it’s like this church that we’re at now, it’s so different, but yet I see Jesus everywhere, you know? And so it’s just been really amazing.
[DAWN]
Yes. I’d like to kind of talk more about that. How did you differentiate, and maybe even going back to the first church where you’re talking about, how did you differentiate at that time between, is this from God or is this from the church who has humans leading it? Like, how do you differentiate between those as you’re going through something? Or is it after?
[WHITNEY]
Yes, well, it’s both. Hindsight’s always better. It was really hard. I had to always remind myself of who these people were and that they were just humans and they have their own baggage, just like we did, you know, some of those things. But honestly, when I had that really dark moment in my life, I mean, I would say that was the first time that I really questioned God’s existence. Like we thought we were called to this. This isn’t working. Does God even exist? Or did I make this all up in my head to make myself feel good? I think we’ve all thought that. And then it really just boiled down to, “Okay, well, I don’t think there’s anything else. What else would I do other than believing God? I can choose not to believe in God and it might make me struggle, be sad, but if I do believe in God and it is all real, then that’s good. Like it’s only going to help me to be faith-based in the long run.”

And all these other things that God’s done in my life. Like the ministry I had before that all, the good experiences, even marrying my husband and kind of like all those little God sightings that we can point back to and know that He’s real. Like all those wouldn’t matter anymore, but I know they’re real. And so going back to those, even when the church is painful, going back and knowing what I really know about God and His personal touch in my life is what kept me going.
[DAWN]
Yes. Yes, so really I love that you gave yourself the space to question and the freedom to just question. I think so many people are afraid of that but what I’m hearing is that you felt free to do that and God showed up personally for you in that.
[WHITNEY]
Yes, definitely.
[DAWN]
Would you say, like for someone who’s in the middle of it where they’re still questioning, any advice or tips you could give them they’re questioning God, they’ve been hurt and they’re where you were back then. And not like, this is us talking about it, what years later, where you have plenty of hindsight, but let’s go back to that point. Any tips for those people?
[WHITNEY]
Yes. That first thing you just said, kind of it’s okay to have that space and to question it. It’s okay to be pissed, to cry, whatever it is that you feel like you need to do. Like give yourself the freedom to do that. In fact, if you don’t want to go to church, don’t go to church. Like we didn’t go to church for a long time after that. Also one of the other things that ,as I look back now that I think really pulled me through was the, I had two or three people that I shared this with, because honestly it was so embarrassing and awful. I didn’t really tell a lot of details to people because, and that’s how a lot of us are. We go through dark times and we don’t want to share, but I had two or three people I shared with and I just remember so clearly sitting with them and then praying for me. And I know that sounds super spiritual, but it really pulled me through.
[DAWN]
Yes. So how did you know those people you could trust versus the people you thought you could trust? I’m just curious, like what differentiated those two?
[WHITNEY]
Yes. Well, one of them was actually with Tanya who, you know. She was hosting that Bible study that I was leading with the other lady and so she was one of the first people I shared it with. She had always seemed like a really good friend and she agreed that what was happening was horrific. And so she really just partnered with me through that. And then the other one was Sheila, my friend that I had met through the seminary. She wasn’t a part of the church, so she could kind of have a outside perspective, but because she was from Colorado, she knew a lot about the church. It was just really well known in the area. And so she kind of, was able to hold that space. She also was studying to be a counselor. So that always helps.
[DAWN]
Yes. Oh, okay. Yes, I think that’s great. So knowing, reaching out to one or two people you can trust that are safe for you to just question and they can hold space for that is really important if you’re questioning and trying to figure out. A term would be deconstructing your faith so that you can reconstruct it. It’s really important to have one or two people you trust to talk through that with.
[WHITNEY]
Hmm. That’s a good way to say it. It was definitely getting torn apart that’s for sure.
[DAWN]
Sure. Yes. And then I also think it’s so important to just, at least for me in my journey, I feel like I’ve had an on and off relationship with the church, depending on which church I was at and just questioning like when do I back out and when do I lean in has been hard for me to understand. Because I do believe overall, like what church is meant to be is beautiful, but a lot of times when, we’re all human, we all mess up and that’s where it gets messy. And how people do the mess is what is important.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. Also one thing that’s, you know, talking about our current church compared to past churches, a lot of our past experience had been a little bit more, I guess, and I’m not the best on these terms, but like a little bit more evangelical and kind of the charismatic movement and a lot of couples praying in tongues every once in a while or raising your hands in worship. And just very spirit-filled kind of places had been our history. And then when we came here, we engaged in a very traditional Methodist church, which is how we both were raised, but we both kind of ran away from that because we didn’t feel like there was enough spirit there, you know, I guess, and I’m like air quotes there. But now we’re in this different place where we find tradition, stability, servanthood. It’s not about you, it’s about serving others and it’s beautiful. And I feel like I see God in that more than I did in all the other churches. Does that make sense?
[DAWN]
Yes, fascinating. So kind of like leaning on these traditional pillars has been like a breath of fresh air or drink of water in a desert for you?
[WHITNEY]
Yes, yes. That stability. And even just the relationships. Like the friendships I’ve made at my current place are much stronger and deeper than at some of the other places I was at. I don’t know, it just, I guess what I’m trying to say is the church doesn’t have to look a certain way. Like sometimes we think, “Oh, well there has to be spirit-filled prayer or prophecy or all these other things. And it doesn’t. It’s not like Jesus came and did all that necessarily like going back to the character, and I think you said this earlier, like kind of the character of Christ over the gifts of the spirit, basically.
[DAWN]
Fascinating. As you’re saying that I’m like, “Oh,” because I would have thought sometimes differently because my husband grew up Catholic and I grew up more Christian. I went through a bunch of churches though. So I haven’t, I went through a bunch of different denominations growing up, but as he grew up Catholic, it was definitely more traditional. And he talks about now feeling more freedom out of the traditional. So it’s just interesting. It basically depends on the person’s personal experience with the specific church and mainly with God, like where is God drawing you into? And how do you experience relationship in the church with that? It changes is what I’m hearing, because two people can have different experiences with traditional churches. But yes, you’re not the first person to say that though. I’ve have a few friends over the years who’ve gone more to the, I can’t think of the word right now, but more, I don’t want to say traditional, but more the liturgic. Yes and I’ve had a lot of freedom there.
[WHITNEY]
Yes, definitely. When my husband had applied for this job at our current church, the pastor called him about 10 minutes after his application came in. And one of the things he said was, you know, I really appreciate you have a master’s of divinity. And like all these other places could care less about his degree, but being somewhere that understood the importance of devoting years to God, to learn the word and to preach well, like we were really glad to have that when other churches don’t find that as valuable.
[DAWN]
That’s interesting. I didn’t realize that because I haven’t been on that side of applying at churches. Wow. I did not know that. Wow. Well, so can you say a little bit more about you feel like the relationships are deeper, actually more the your spiritual connection to God. You feel like that’s even more alive here at this current church.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. Yes, and just, actually I think a really good analogy is to think about a marriage. So in a marriage, the very beginning, you feel good, you get the fuzzy, what’s ease and you’re excited. You’re always doing things together, saying sweet things to one another and life is amazing. And then you get to like years three, four and five of marriage and the spark’s not there and you have to work harder. But at the same time, you work really hard with your spouse on something and then something amazing happens. Or you fight for your child to get services that they need for six months. Not that I’ve been there and then they actually get the services that you’ve worked so hard for. And then it’s like this beautiful, amazing thing that you have together. And I think that’s a lot of what our relationship with God is like that we have newbie Christians and they’re excited and we feel the spirit and we do all these things, but really love comes when we stop and devote ourselves to something, even when we don’t feel it, even when we don’t see it all the time, you know? And then I look back and I’m like, like even at my practice, when I walk around and I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I have this group practice. This is crazy.” And then I’m like, “This is God. God did this journey with me and still is and that’s what’s beautiful. And that’s what makes my faith strong.”
[DAWN]
Yes. Wow. So more like grounding yourself in the value of, like you said with the marriage analogy, like, “I’m grounding myself in this love and this commitment when it’s really stressful right now and we have to fight for services for our daughter. And this is hard, but in the long run, because I’m grounding on these values, we’re going to make it through and we can rejoice and relax and take a breath after and it’s even more sweeter.” Wow. Yes. It makes me want to ask tons more questions about that too. But I would like to, anything else you’d like to share with people as we’re kind of getting to the end of, for those hurting or for those in the doubt and the pain? Like anything else you want to share on that?
[WHITNEY]
This is not what they want to hear, but what I think is important is hope. Like my husband felt called to ministry. The moment I met him, like he was talking about being a pastor and that was 15 years ago. And this week or last week, I guess he got ordained. Talk about a journey.
[DAWN]
It was just last week? That’s awesome. Oh my gosh.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. I thought the timing of our podcast interview was fantastic.
[DAWN]
Totally.
[WHITNEY]
Yes. But it was just last week. So I’d probably be saying something totally different if it had been two weeks ago, and we were still like uncertain, but yes. And so the journey has been really long, really long but now we’re there, and God’s going to do some great things. So just be in your place, be in whatever place you want to be in emotionally. And it’s important that you like get through that, but always know that God can have something really great for you and just try to keep pushing through and having hope, the kind of the light at the end of the tunnel thing.
[DAWN]
Yes. Hope, I love that word. I don’t have tattoos because I usually am afraid of needles, but if I was going to get a tattoo, it would have the word hope on it somewhere. But yes, I love that. And I love that you have been so authentic and real and as a pastor’s wife sharing, you know, “We have been hurt and we’ve come through that. So just, and we didn’t go to church for a while.” Like just that’s real. That’s life that we’re going to have ups and downs with our relationship with God, with our relationship with church and one another. And just, I love your story is one of hope and redemption on a personal level.

Yes. And before we end, I love asking my guests if they have, if you’ve had a transformational trail moment where you have felt it’s been really impactful or a specific trail that you feel more spiritual on, I love to kind of leave that with people, whether they’re in your area or wherever you’ve experienced that. So anything you want to share on that, Whitney?
[WHITNEY]
Boy, there’s a lot of stories I could share on this. I would say my moment was changed when I went to Slow Down School. So that is the retreat through Practice of the Practice in Michigan. Now, of course we haven’t done it lately because it COVID but I did get in there the year before COVID and it was that week away where God spoke to me and told me to do the consulting. It was the last thing I wanted to do. I was running away as much as I could because it seemed scary. And I mean, there’s so many excuses I could give you as to why I didn’t want to do it but God kept hitting me over the head. And then it was that week that Joe invited me to join the team, which I never thought would have happen. And just looking back, like I see God’s hand and it’s kind of been a big change for me, kind of coming into fullness of my calling that I didn’t even realize was there. And when we go into that fullness, like that’s when we experience God in a greater way, that journey.
[DAWN]
Yes. Wow. So do you remember what the trail was? Was it in Michigan, you said?
[WHITNEY]
Oh, you want like a literal trail?
[DAWN]
You don’t have to. I just thought —
[WHITNEY]
I can give you a literal trail too, actually, because we did a lot of hiking while we were there. We were hiking on a mountain. I was thinking like a spiritual.
[DAWN]
I’m doing both. I want both.
[WHITNEY]
The other part, this is actually, I guess kind of goes with it. This part where we were walking along like Michigan, it was like almost like a mountain to the side and you’re like looking out. It was just amazing. And I felt so clearly like the Lord impressed on my heart, “You are way too much of a Martha and you need to be more of a Mary. You are so distracted by so many things that you’re forgetting the important thing.” Now, obviously in the Mary and Martha story, the important thing is sitting at Jesus’s feet, but I felt like what the Lord was sharing with me was the consulting. Like you’re so fixated on your practice and all these other things that I’m really just telling you to do this consulting stuff, because this is where I want to move in people’s practices. So you better stop doing all that other stuff and focus on this. And I actually shared that story with the group I was there, which was very intimidating because it’s not like a spiritually faith-based group and really stepped out of my shell with that and just got a ton of support. So I’m trying to focus on the main thing.
[DAWN]
I love that. And I feel like I hear God on trails more than anywhere else in my life. So I love hearing that because they are transformational and Whitney, if you did not listen to God on that trail, like I just think you’re one of the best consultants and you have come into your own. I’ve seen you come alive, I’ve seen you help a ton of people, and you’re just so good at it. It is definitely like a purpose button for you that I see you stepping into. So I’m so glad you listened and went on that hike.
[WHITNEY]
Well, I appreciate that. And of course, as you know, like you were a big inspiration to me early in my career, not only just in having a practice, but the clinical part. And so if we hadn’t met, it’s just crazy how God brings you these encounters and you never know where they’re going to take you.
[DAWN]
Yes. And you’re the reason I’m in podcasting actually, because you interviewed me on your podcast and I fell in love with it. And then I knew you were working with Joe and I said, “Well, Whitney’s doing it. I trust her and I know she researches things and then she steps out of her fear.” I’m like, “I can do it.”
[WHITNEY]
Oh, thank you.
[DAWN]
So it goes both ways, girl.
[WHITNEY]
That’s awesome. Well, glad to have you in my life. And I’m excited for this podcast. Looking forward to this and all the other stories that I’m going to get to hear through the podcast.
[DAWN]
Well thank you again for being so authentic and Whitney, how can people get in touch with you if they want to do consulting or talk about their faith and practice?
[WHITNEY]
Sure. A couple of ways. You can email me, whitney@practiceofthepractice.com. You can listen to my podcast, the Faith in Practice podcast. And I did interview Dawn on, I think it was episode 9, 10, 8, something like that early on. So make sure you listen to that. And I do have a Facebook community, totally free, just people who are private practice owners who are making faith a part of their work. And so you can look that up, Faith in Practice Facebook group.
[DAWN]
Great. And I will have that also in the show notes for anyone who didn’t catch that. You can look at our show notes and get ahold of Whitney through there too. Well, thank you so much, Whitney. I’ve really enjoyed this.
[WHITNEY]
Thanks for having me Dawn.
[DAWN]
Take care.

Thank you for listening today at Faith Fringes Podcast. If you want to explore more of your own faith journey, I offer my free eight-week email course called Spiritual Reflections, where you take a deeper dive into your own story included as a journaling workbook that has guided exercises. So if you want to explore more of what you were brought up to believe, or even look at where you may have been disillusioned or hurt, but yet still deep down you desire to authentically connect with God, then this course is for you. Just go to faithfringes.com to sign up.

Also, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email and tell me what’s on your mind. You can reach me at dawn@faithfringes.com. Faith Fringes is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith in Practice, Beta Male Revolution, Empowered and Unapologetic or Impact Driven Leader, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network.

This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want a professional, you should find one